Need some encouragement

[bartman]

Hi all. Long time lurker here, first time poster.

I'm a little frustrated with the Rev kites or rather I'm frustrated with myself using Re kites.

I do not have a lot of free time to fly and most times I do get the chance I'm dealing with one extreme or the other wind speeds and almost always gusts. I also seldom get the chance to fly with any other Rev guys. There is one other with an EXP version and I'm told two other people in the city with some version of a Rev, but they must be worse at finding time to fly than me.

I'm sure most of you would agree that having other flyers at times helps keep the incentive going to tackle the learning curve.

What is just about driving me crazy is any kind of upside down hover. It is a combination of things that just throw me. I can hover facing right/left/up nicely (You'd hope so by this point) although transitioning between those orientations is sloppy and ugly. Turn it upside down and my brain doesn't get it. Just about each time I try I can guarantee I will drive it into the ground. It's like I want to stand on my head to keep the lines straight. I can manage reverse flight vertically and horizontal without losing control, but my flight path is a little shaky.

Further to this. If I practice with taking off inverted I can lift the kite, but not hover it and always it will rotate LE back up. I swear on its own accord, but I'm sure I am giving that input without realizing it. Time and time again. My own logic says the Rev should hover upside down easy with the bulk of the weight then on the bottom, but in practical terms that isn't the way it works.

When some members of iQuad were here in June I was advised to put my top lines on the furtherst knot out (I have a B-Series both standard and vented to try and more easily deal with the wind extremes here) for maximum break. This has helped a bit with getting the kite off the ground inverted, but not with any hover and the flipping over has had no change.

JohnB has told me I'm over controlling which is probably true although I do not feel my movements are that large.

Comparing the B-Series to the EXP I'd say the EXP is more forgiving with the control (Although I can't back up vertically through the window with it either and still get the flip back to forward flight) and the B-Series is more "twitchy" or less forgiving in the hands of an amateur!

So, with no one here locally any better at Rev flight than myself what do I need to do to break through this inverted hover barrier and move forward? If hovering is one of the key things to all other more interesting things besides just steering around the sky forwards then I need to get there before becoming so frustrated that I just give up and buy a single line to sit and look at. I'd be happy with even 1 small second of inverted hover before it flips around or I drive it into the ground. I know not to expect much more to begin with.

Thanks for any words of wisdom and/or some encouragement for us Rev flyers in the middle of no where.

Bart

[REVflyer]

practice with the kite inverted and the leading edge laying on the ground. Push your thumbs slightly at the kite and then walk backwards holding the kite no more than should high. do this practice session in low winds for maximum benefit!

when you are comfortable holding it shoulder high than go for double that height

keep practicing until you overcome the fear of having it inverted

if when you can't back it up inverted

then add more DOWN by shorting the bottom leaders or adding length to the top leaders

practice, practice, practice,... oh how I wish there was some pill you could take, but alas nothing except time will help

[Jonesey]

Just to be contrary ... standard advice is to start from ground .. lift off and try and maintain hover.. repeat until success.....BUT ...

Where I fly the ground wind is always a bit flukey so when I was trying to show my wife she had exactly the problem you are having so we did the opposite way ... climb to about 80% of the window normally, invert and during the 'fall' to the ground you have a lot more time to push you thumbs forward and find the 'sweet spot' and in cleaner breeze.... worked for her and its so much more comforting having more sky to play in.

The other thing to work on ... and it always the first 'trick' people like to learn.... is the dive stop and each time increase the amount of time you hover at the stop point however high that might be! ... kind of gets you into a rhythm of flip over, relax then thumbs forward to stop and/or hover.

I know it doesn't help at this stage but I think its true that once you get the hang of inverted hovers it becomes the natural attitude and is almost easier then flying upright ... weird really!

Oh and I fly alone mostly so I feel you pain.... my solution was to replace the people with a full kite bag of Rev's so I always have something different to play with ...

Keep banging away at it, I'm sure the Eureka moment is only minutes away

[Jeepster]

I'm a little frustrated with the Rev kites or rather I'm frustrated with myself using Re kites.

What is just about driving me crazy is any kind of upside down hover.

JohnB has told me I'm over controlling which is probably true although I do not feel my movements are that large.

Thanks for any words of wisdom and/or some encouragement for us Rev flyers in the middle of no where.

Bart

Bart,

You have other REV flyers in the same town as you!!!! Wow, the closest REV kite to me is 50 miles away. I'm jealous!!

As a certified newbie to REV flying, please let me help you sort through the multitude of help you'll receive because of this posting ... while I"m writing this you will probably receive several answers. The great part is that ALL REV flyers genuinely want to help others ... there is no hording of secrets in the kite flying community. In fact, at the last IKE fun fly the wind was well above my kite's capability range. So, Mike Kory reached into his car and handed me a vented kite to fly that day. Then when they started to fly in formation, he handed me a set of 120 foot lines so I could participate. That's how much REV flyers want to help you succeed.

I fly in two worlds ... the RC plane world and now the kite world. I've been in the RC world for almost two decades, so am a reasonably accomplished pilot. Flying is essentially a reflex operation. Still have to concentrate on what's going on ... gravity is very unforgiving in the world of balsa ... but, basically I don't even think about what my hands are doing to achieve a flight pattern. I'm constantly trying to think up new mental tricks to help new RC flyers get through the brain freeze period where their thinking is a few seconds behind what the plane is currently doing. Some tricks work with some folks and not with others ... so, I simply keep changing the instruction until something clicks.

Like you, I'm still having to think about my hands, the wind, the ground, the next move, why it isn't doing what I thought I told it to, etc. So my advice is to listen especially for the "mental tricks" and the "how it should feel" advice. Sailor has told me that "there are no right answers in any of the rev stuff, only experimenting to find what works for you!"...he's right. So, write down all the mental tricks that are posted ... then go try each of them ... one will get through the fog. Also, write down all of the how it should feel ideas ... then go see if you can create that feeling ... again, one will surprise you. Ask why until you get to the root reason of why folks are doing something.

I'm also working on creating a reverse universe ... here's what I'm currently doing:

1) Start with the leading edge on the ground and rock each side up independently and hold it for awhile then bring both sides up together and try to hold it a foot or so off the ground

2) Go to various heights directly down wind - flip the kite upside down and try to hold it there

3) Don't move my hands as much as pivot my arms at the elbow to reduce the control input

4) Focus on rotating the arm downward on the side that is too high ... not the side that the lines are connected to. If the left side is too high, I lower the left arm slightly.

5) Practice something else.

6) Mix up all of the above so that I don't become bored, frustrated, or upset ... my attention span is not that long.

A new skill takes time to develop. If you keep practicing when your attention is shot, you'll just practice bad habits.

BTW, I love being a beginner in this sport, the learning curve is soooooo steep. And, I'm pretty sure kite flying is not supposed to be taken seriously. Read James Thurber's short story titled "The Secret Life of Walter Mitty" ... it's on the Internet. Walter's my hero ... every day I fly, I follow in Walter's footsteps. Like Walter would, I'm constantly teaching John B. new moves. Every one of John's new videos has a move or two that he's learned from me.

Enjoy,

Tom

[Mike]

Like Walter would, I'm constantly teaching John B. new moves. Every one of John's new videos has a move or two that he's learned from me.

very Walter Mitty! Ha!

[AldenMiller]

My first advice is to get out of kiting, send your revs to me!

I found that I picked up the hover after being able to slide sideways while inverted. The movement was helping with my upside down position. Once I had that I was able to stop the slide and hover inverted. Now the damn kite won't fly upright.

-Alden

[big bri]

My first advice is to get out of kiting, send your revs to me!

I found that I picked up the hover after being able to slide sideways while inverted. The movement was helping with my upside down position. Once I had that I was able to stop the slide and hover inverted. Now the damn kite won't fly upright.

-Alden

Top advice indeed the first bit,funny to Alden.Will save our new member a few $$$ to.

Welcome Bartman, to the dark side,

Its hard learning new stuff,some great advice on here for ya though bartman.

Best advice,PRACTICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE,PRACTICE.

BRIAN...

[sailor99]

Yep frustrating isn't it Bartman. We have all been there or are even still are there! Keep at it - it will come, I promise.

[Aerochic]

Bart, as a solo flyer... I feel your pain, I really do!!! The closest Revvers to me are 60 and 150 some miles away. Wah! It does get better tho. Keep at it and something will just click. My learning process has been slow but with every fly I pick up something new. I'm still having trouble with inverteds and hovers. Some days I'm just happy to have airtime, know what I mean?

I found that I picked up the hover after being able to slide sideways while inverted. The movement was helping with my upside down position. Once I had that I was able to stop the slide and hover inverted. Now the damn kite won't fly upright.

Alden this is exactly what I'm going through right now. Except maybe I've progressed to reversing up to the top of the window. :? Haven't figured out how to stop sliding yet. I'm totally learning this by mistake, but isn't that where we learn the most anyway?

[fortflyer]

I would suggest first and for most to check your equipment.

hook all 4 lines to something that will not move and use your stake on the other end to pull them taught make sure non of your lines are drooping away from the others, a little is OK but 1 line with a considerable droop will drive someone nuts while still learning.

Next when setting up make sure your bridles are straight and clear no twists, I know this sounds a bit finicky but getting those two things out of the way narrows things down alot.

Next thing do you have knots in your top and bottom lines for adjusting? many people never knew about that until they saw someone with them, these help in tuning the lines to the kite for more fwd and reverse effect on the controls.

Once the equipment is cleared then it just comes to practice practice practice and hopefully you will run into someone else that fly's eventually which will help the curve quite a bit.

Good Luck, hope this helps

[Choccy]

Haven't figured out how to stop sliding yet.

this is something I am dealing with, and have to really concentrate on where my arms are.

to stop it sliding you have to stop one arm pulling towards yourself more than the other.

keep your arms at the same distance from the kite and you'll get the perfect balance.

Pull your right arm/hand towards your body and the kite slides to the left while inverted and vice versa.

I hope that helps.

My biggest problem I am trying to address (since the clinic) is the inverted hover high in the window...

got to just keep at it

But sliding along the ground inverted is great fun (once you know how)

[Morrunya]

Revs are a totally different animal in reverse, and while inverted. You must use small movements to get what you want. Giving too little control is better than too much, because if you give to little, you just go back to where you started, but if you give too much, one of the wings may flip over, then you'll have to do the walk of shame to get the wing wrap out.

When learning to fly in reverse, take baby steps. Just do a little bit at a time. I know it can be frustrating, but you'll get it.

[KiteLife]

Ya, common phrase at our clinics when teaching control (especially reverse or hover), less is more.

[awindofchange]

I wonder if you could tell us what lines you are using on your B-series? The reason I ask is that I had a customer that was having the exact same problem that you are having and was totally frustrated and ready to trash-can the whole Rev thing. He was also flying a B-series. I was fortunate enough to be able to leave work and meet him at the flying field to hopefully give him a helping hand.

When I got there the first thing I found is that he was using some garbage lines that he purchased from somewhere else not wanting to spend the money for a quality spectra lineset (home depot, hobby store, not sure) - not sure what type of line they were but they had so much stretch/bungee in them that the kite practically had a mind of its own. After trying to work with his kite and a little arguing about the lines, I finally just broke out my own lineset, replaced his lines and within 10 minutes and a couple adjustments he was hovering the kite beautifully. He was still not quite convinced that it was all in the lines so we switched back to his set. Needless to say his set went into the park garbage can and he immediately came to the shop and purchased a new quad set of spectra line.

Hovering the Rev upside down is one of the most difficult things to master. As you mentioned in your post you are in gusty/non-consistent winds which will make it even more difficult to learn. If your lines are all even and are of high quality spectra then the only other suggestion has already been given to you. Practice, practice, practice.

Not sure where you are located at all but you may want to look around for another area to fly that might be less wind challenging. I know this sounds a little silly but it really does make a huge difference. We have our local "Friday night fun fly" every Friday night out at a park that is located clear on the other side of the city and we have people all the time ask us why we don't just hold our fun fly at one of the parks that are close to our shop. The reason is that the wind sucks in the parks that are close to us. The surroundings cause huge wind shadows and turbulence that make it very difficult and frustrating to fly. So we travel about 8-10 miles away to the park where the wind is much more consistent and stable (plus we have a huge area to play in). You may want to look around at different areas of your city to see if another park will be better to fly at. Sometimes even moving a couple 100' left or right could have a huge impact on the wind on your kite, making it easier to learn and fly. Remember that even the smallest trees and fences will give you wind turbulence. Buildings, houses and other large obstacles will make it frustrating if not impossible to get a good flying time.

I hope this helps. Don't give up just yet, the Rev is one of the funnest kites to fly and it would be a shame if you didn't have the opportunity to enjoy it fully. You really are just a couple more sessions away from getting it under control. Good luck and keep us informed on your progress.

[KiteLife]

Well said Kent, thanks.

[Jeepster]

Bart,

One more thing for you to try.

I noticed when the kite stops at the end of a dive stop, the bottoms of vertical rods are pulled towards each other and the middle of the kite billows considerably. In that position, the kite is very stable for awhile. With that in mind, I stopped holding the sticks right in front of myself and moved them off to the side ... yep, really moved them to the side ... about a foot or so off to the side ... trust me, no one will ask you to fly in iQuad with the sticks in that position. What that did though is pull the lower end of the verticals inward and partially duplicated the dive stop shape. For me, the reverse hover position became easier to maintain. I was able to keep it upside down for several minutes at a time ... and when the wind was helpful the kite actually backed up the window. That's a first for me!!!

Once I had the kite stable(?), I moved the sticks towards each other ... yep, it became more difficult to keep the balance. I'm going to continue to practice with the sticks out to the side until I develop a good feel for what it takes to maintain a hover ... you can call it a hover right now if +/- 10 feet of drift counts as a hover ... I certainly don't own it yet. After getting the drift under control, I'll move the sticks towards their correct position.

Oh, and John's phrase "less is more", I'm pretty sure I remember teaching him that in my Walter Mitty persona. Look in his iPhone next time you see him, that's where he keeps all the things I've taught him. In fact, the next time you see him looking at his iPhone, ask him if Walter's stuff isn't in there!

Cheers,

Tom

[Felix]

Bart,

<snip>

BTW, I love being a beginner in this sport, the learning curve is soooooo steep.

<snip>

Enjoy,

Tom

But the real beauty of it is that the learning curve does not stop...

Sometimes it is hard to relay that in sensible language. <grins>

Felix

[KiteLife]

Man, never a truer word Felix...

I've been flying Revs pretty regularly for the last 17 years, nearly non-stop for the last 2, and I'm still learning more and more every time out.

[Jim Foster]

Don't give up.

There is an inverted hover in your future.

With all the great help here on the forum, it will be yours shortly.

[Aerochic]

this is something I am dealing with, and have to really concentrate on where my arms are.

to stop it sliding you have to stop one arm pulling towards yourself more than the other.

keep your arms at the same distance from the kite and you'll get the perfect balance.

Pull your right arm/hand towards your body and the kite slides to the left while inverted and vice versa.

I hope that helps.

My biggest problem I am trying to address (since the clinic) is the inverted hover high in the window...

got to just keep at it

But sliding along the ground inverted is great fun (once you know how)

That does help! Thank You! I do need to be more mindful of what my arms are doing sometimes. I just figured out recently how to fly more relaxed with less and smaller movements.

I do enjoy the inverted slide tho. It looks so cool... until you lose it! Lol!

[bartman]

WOW, this is a lot of encouragement. Let's see if I can pick my way through this in a reasonabe amout of time.

FortFlyer - Are you referring to additional knots at the handles from what is already there on the B-Series or to make knots for adjustments if none already existed? I have been considering line length issues and have not ruled out that being a problem, but at the same time it sits nicely at the top of the window with the handles together so I'm not convinced it is an issue yet.

Watty - Baby steps. I don't think I have even learned to crawl yet. The concept of small adjustments is so relative. I do not think I am making large movements, but clearly I am.

awindofchange - I cannot say exactly because I no longer remember, but I can tell you that I asked JohnB what I should buy about a year ago and bought that. They are not cheap lines that is for certain. I'm thinking perhaps it was Laser something. I no longer have those emails to verify what they are I just know that they are good lines since I wasn't going to invest in an excellent kite then cheap out on the lines. As for the flying fields. Well, this is a challenge. The closest to me is a block away in a school yard. Lovely, but surrounded by tall trees and a lot of buildings. Works out best in stronger winds that can push through the mess, but far from clean wind. The other place works okay if I get anything from the north blowing, but usually north winds are so ugly that it takes more dedication than I have to go stand out in them. This field is about 10 minutes away. The only other place is where the kite festival was held this year and it is usable for only about a month before it is so grown in again that you can't see the kite standing in it. A couple of us are trying to get the city to grade the area and plant it to grass which would give a very nice spot for kite flying, electric R/C and model rockets, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon. So, in the meantime I have to make do with the gusts and extremes hoping everything aligns the evenings or weekends I can be out.

Jeepster - You sort of lost me on the sticks out part for a bit. Are you saying a foot apart directly in front of you or a foot out from each side of you so really wide? Yes, one other guy for sure is near me with the EXP, but he probably has even less time than me to fly. We've flown once together in the last year. I figure he has a better handle on his technique than I do and he feels the opposite! There are supposed to be two other people in this city with a Rev of some configuration, but they have not come forward yet. I even posted an online ad on a local news site looking for them. It is a city of armchair kite flyers! I believe you when you say that Rev flyers want to help each other. I have witnessed this first hand both times iQuad has been here.

REVflyer - You are basically describing what I have been trying to do with a reverse launch. Problem is, it will lauch just fine then either spin around to face forward or I will drive it back into the ground once again not grasping the inverted and pulling back on the controls. Technically, even getting the inverted launch was milestone since I couldn't do that last year at all.

Jonesey - I tried that too for the same reasons. I figured I'd give myself some space by trying it higher up. The dive and stop is more like, dive/stop/flip or rotate for me. I cannot get a dead stop/hover (which makes sense since this whole problem is related to inverted and hover so if I could do a dive/stop/hover I'd probably wet myself with excitement) at all. I can do the dive part...

AldenMiler - Although said in jest there are days that I do think I should not bother. If the learning curve is even measured in short hours, not long days I am short on hours. While I have vacation time this week there has been only one evening with any wind. An hour here or there will never be enough. Interesting about the inverted slide though. I did that once. The kite was down, the handles staked and I tripped on myself and in the process moved a handle at the same time a gust of wind rolled through. I had the perfect inverted slide six inches off the ground with no touch by me. It told me the kite wasn't the problem and that I should probably took better note of the handle positions! I see a lot of iQuad video with the kite inverted a lot of the time and a lot of responses on this thread about flying inverted more than upright. Right now if it wasn't for upright it wouldn't be going anywhere! With my original Rev 1 on a good day on good grass I used to be able to skate it along on the leading edge then flip it around upright and go. Looking back I probably was within hours of making that an inverted slide before I even knew what one was. I can't even get that ground slide with the new kite yet (but then again there is the limited good grass areas to even try).

The other key element mentioned here is "practice". Yeah, I do get that concept. Generally I pick up things quickly and when something doesn't happen at the speed I think it should happen then I start to beat myself up on it. My goal was to hover inverted last fall and I didn't come close. I became fixed on not making that goal then just stopped flying probably two months before the weather dicated I should have stopped. I keep coming back for more self abuse I guess, but this time decided not to tackle this alone, but to ask for help so I can stay on course and not over-think it. I'm also going to try something totally different for me and that is plug music into my head while I do this. I've never owned an iPod and didn't care to, but I do now. I'm hoping that the music may calm the controls so no rock&roll to start, but something light. We'll see how that goes.

Thanks.

Bart

[Jeepster]

Jeepster - You sort of lost me on the sticks out part for a bit. Are you saying a foot apart directly in front of you or a foot out from each side of you so really wide?

Bart,

I had the handles at waist height, the top tips about three feet apart and the bottoms angled even further outward ... so really wide. It probably looked dumb, but so did the stupid grin on my face when the kite hung in the air upside down. BTW, I'm pretty sure Jonesy and Alden are just being plain mean when they say the kite flyes upside down better than upright. If it was so &^%%&* easy, you and I would be flying that way already ... yes?

Cheers,

Tom

[dean750]

I was taught to fly inverted first before all other. It's something to work on. I'm sure you can do all the forward stuff. So work on inverted. The inverted reversed bicycle across the window at about 6" off the ground is so cool you can't help but smile.

Another reason to launch inverted and hold the hover at 1' or less from the ground is that when or if the kite dives, ( to far forward on the thumbs. Very common in ALL aspects) your not going to slam hard.

You'll get it quick, took me longer to fly forward than it did to hold an inverted hover. I'm odd like that.

Dean

[Jeepster]

Jonesey - I tried that too for the same reasons. I figured I'd give myself some space by trying it higher up. The dive and stop is more like, dive/stop/flip or rotate for me. I cannot get a dead stop/hover (which makes sense since this whole problem is related to inverted and hover so if I could do a dive/stop/hover I'd probably wet myself with excitement) at all. I can do the dive part...

Bart,

Jonesy is probably sleeping right now, but when he wakes up, I'm sure he'll tell you to check your line lengths. If the dive/stop doesn't end in a brief hover, then that's the first thing to check.

The lines (even good ones) will stretch some during the first few hours of flight. It's not too bad if the two top lines stay even with each other and the bottom two lines stay even with each other ... you can sort out any top/bottom difference with the knots on your handles. But, if you've been pulling harder on one side or the other or you've rotated the lines then it's hard to sort out the difference.

To check your lines, place the loops from one end of all four lines on a horizontal rod/nail/dowel, stretch out the lines, and hold the other ends even on a dowel/rod/screw driver. If there is a difference in the sag of the lines then you'll have to even out the lines by shortening the saggy ones. Shorten them either by untying and retying the knots in the sleeving ... after pulling a little extra line through the sleeving ... or by just adding an extra knot in the sleeving as it is.

How much sag is okay? I'll let others tell you their experience. I compare the top two lines to each other and the bottom two lines to each other. I pull the loop on the saggiest top line until it's even with the other top line. Then I look at how much I've pulled on the long/saggy line. If it's over a quarter inch, I shorten the longest line. Then I do the same with the bottom lines. I keep the tops and the bottoms very even with each other. As to the difference between bottoms and tops ... I put the short ones on top to help stretch them out. Right now my top lines are a half inch shorter than my bottom lines ...

Cheers,

Tom

[dean750]

Music is a great flying partner. It doesn't really matter what kind of music your listening too if your not trying to put together a ballet.

I am a perfectionist myself and either put myself down so much I just quit flying for a while or I break something. That really isn't what kiting is all about. I have learned since being on these forums and watching vids that Rev flying is about nothing more than control. Practice is the key. But so is self control. When emotions get involved in a negitive way flying gets harder and harder.

When flying inverted your handle inputs are VERY small. I think of these movements as more of a small bounce of the handle instead of putting the handle in one place and holding it there. Just enough bounce to pull the slack out of the bottom lines. BE GENTEL. LOL, it's hard as you know, but you'll get it.

Dean

Off to fly, toodles