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Line winding with minimal twists/tangles, iQuad style...


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There has been a lot of discussion regarding line winding methods, most particularly minimizing the twists or tangles in your lines as you set up your kite each time.

I've tried everything over the years... Halo spools on a drill (fast wind), two winders, one winder, winding on the handles, tying pairs together, tying all four together, straight wind, figure eight wind... In my experience, nothing I've tried thus far compares with the method we've used religiously on iQuad over the past 3 years... We don't even think about our lines anymore, except which weight or length to use. <grin>

Three minutes to set up, three minutes to tear down... No more 20-30 minute untangling sessions. ;)

==

Here's the formula for a reliable one-winder affair, starting with your kite leading edge down, staked at the top of the handles (i.e. secure on the ground) and no more than a 1/2 twist in the lines:

1. At the kite end, disconnect the left lines, then larks head your top line onto the bottom line's sleeving and slide it down to the knot... This should leave the bottom line effectively pulled out further than the top line (I'll explain this later).

2. Repeat the same technique with the right side, then put both sets in one hand so you have the two bottom loops together like two lines, with both top lines attached at the knot(s) on the bottom line sleeving.

3. Although all four lines are in one hand now, you should only be holding the bottom loops in your fingers as you place those two onto the notch in your winder.

3. Wind straight or figure eight, doesn't make a single bit of difference in twisting... It only effects your winding motion, and how the line sits on the winder... I very much prefer a straight wind as it tends to be neater, and I can fit more line into less space on the winder.

** NOTE: You've now attached your bottom loops to the winder, without twisting them prior... As you wind, the winder is NOT rotating or twisting in any way, it's only going to move up and down, in and out, as you make your way to the handles... Simply, there are no twists thus far in the process, it's literally impossible because nothing rotates. (part 2 in the next section)

4. As you finish winding and are approaching the handles, wind down to ground so as not to lift the handles which might allow them to spin (twist)... As you pick up the handles, they should fairly well fold right over the winder so you can strap the whole thing down (securely).

** NOTE: Again I'll point out that the loops (kite end) haven't rotated, and the handles haven't rotated either, not significantly anyway... Ergo, no excessive twists, literally impossible because you've in theory brought the four points at either end together, spooling the line cleanly in-between... You might end up with a twist or two as you inadvertently allow one pair (R or L) to twist somewhere, go through each other once, or perhaps at the handle end.

** NOTE 2: The reason the handles are probably going to fold over the winder so nicely is the fact that we first staggered the top and bottom lines at the kite end before winding... We pulled the bottom lines out further (by 4"-6") which conversely pulled the bottom of the handles forward at the other end, setting the handles up for a neat fold over at the end. ;)

** NOTE 3: I typically leave my handles on, but if you must remove yours, be sure to reverse the method you used at the kite end... Instead, you'll be larks heading the BOTTOM lines onto the top lines, so the tops are extending further out, opposite of the other end, taking out most of the slack (uneven lengths) in the lines.

** NOTE 4: Using this method correctly, it should be impossible for a twist or tangle to form that would warrant disconnecting one line and worming it out, shouldn't EVER be necessary, because again, we've worked with fixed pairs and non-rotation at either end, you should be able to get any twist out simply by rotating the handles together, individually, or putting one through the other every now and then... Disconnecting a line generally causes more trouble than it solves, unless you're working with a real pile of spaghetti. :)

==

Setting up:

1. Stick a stake in the ground.

2. Unstrap your winder, place the TOP of your handles onto the stake (like locking the kite in forward) and walk downwind with the winder in a position that allows it to rock freely (but secure in your hand)... Everything should pop-pop-pop-pop right off, all the way to the end.

3. Take the loops off your winder and put one in each hand, pulling some tension into the lines and spreading your arms to centralize the (apparent) twists a little, but don't try too hard... Working with one side first, separate one pair (top and bottom R or L), then attach to the kite, repeat with the other side.

** NOTE: DO NOT muck with what you think are twists yet, just hook up the kite, place it leading edge down on the ground and walk back to the handles.

4. Picking up your handles carefully so as not to accidentally launch, then waggle one brake line (watching for one side of the kite to wiggle) in order to identify your R/L handles and arrange them accordingly.

5. Now, using the handles, draw tension into all four lines with a conscious mind on your control of the kite... 90%-95% of what appeared to be twists should cancel each other out, leaving 1-3 twists, shouldn't be any more than this if you've done everything right.

==

I generally teach this one in person, but figured it was time to break it down thoroughly for those who rely on forum information between events. ;)

Post back here, share your successes or failures with this method, I'll be happy to clarify if prompted.

==

UPDATE - Video tutorial now available on YouTube:

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Well, I'm still hit or miss on lines...... period.

But I am starting to pay attention while winding lines. It's actually working taking down and setting up again for the last couple of times out. :lol: I was starting to get to not to dread........ whew..... winding my lines. Or thinking of, " what kinda crap did I get myself into" this time out when setting up. I finally got the huge knot in my 50# 40' lines after about 2 weeks of tinkering B) (favorite lines in half mile an hour or less outdoors.) and the rust is starting to fall off, so all together things were starting to come together. :)

Setting up today went perfectly, the first time. On both the 80' ers and the 40' s. ;)

Went from 3 mph when I first got there at 6 pm to won't even slightly rock the prop in my wind meter, but smoke show'd direction.

I just had to walk too much for the 80' 90# line. So fearfully I put my favorite lines for the conditions out and the light wind ball continued :wub: Occasionally crash on purpose just to throw the kite and watch it float out to the end of the line. Had a blast.

Time to go. So I rocket to the top and back strait down to the tips. Got to thinking about, "Well, if throwing the kite is working and that fun, I wonder if I could catch it?" :lol: So I grabbed the top lines at arms length and started to give the gentle jerk, and whoosed, only giving enough of the jerk to get the kite about 10 feet closer to me and bridle down. So, long story short...... :lol:

Some how after seperating all 4 lines and putting them together on both ends I had a small (by comparison) knot just past middle while winding up. :rolleyes: After a while of working on getting the knot out, again, I ran outta light.... again. All of a sudden the knot popped loose and I was finally going home on a good note. LOL, with the knot all spread out on my fingers, both feet and my teeth apparently when I flicked my Bic, I lightered the center line of the knot. :huh: Just the one line, about 10' or so from the sleeved loop.

Moral of this short story.... :lol:

Learn from your first mistake and try not to repeat the feat and up the second experience.

Oh, and lighters and line don't work together when it's dark.

Me

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When I only had a couple kites, I wound my lines around the handles for years and never had a problem. I had a set of handles with long lines wrapped around them and set of handles with a short set of lines attached.

Now that I have a few more kites, and a few more linesets, I mostly use a winder. I use the iQuad method with the winder.

I've always wanted to ask someone at Laser Pro if winding a figure-8 or straight winding made a difference for the health of the lines. Specifically, since straight winding puts a lot of twists in the lines, does it affect the braid? Does it work more dirt into the braid?

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Just a small point to add.. I remove the handle from the lines, and when I wind the lines on the winder, I keep the knots where the sleeves are out of the way of the actual winding. I find that this helps because otherwise during unwinding, those knots can sometimes snag the lines and "jerk" the unwinding.. Also helps to prevent "knicks" on the lines..

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I find it interesting,how different people unwind/wind there lines up at the start/end of a flying day.I have tried all the methods and this is the one I found the easiest.Go to your DIY/hardware store and buy a length of the grey pipe insulation(the stuff with the hole down the middle).Measure the length of the bottom of the handles(from base of grip to end of handle)around 6 inches and cut foam to length.When you have finished flying,land leading edge down and let the kite fall away from you so it is laying flat.Take one of your handles and push the bottom of the handle into the hole on the pipe insulation so it now covers the bottom of your handle.Then grab both lines and start to wind around the pipe insulation all the way to the kite.When you have reached the kite disconnect the lines and wrap the remaing lines around and slot the sleeving into the pre cut slot on the pipe foam.When it comes to the set up attach your lines to the kite and walk backwards letting the line unwind from the foam sleeves you have made.Now stake you handles and walk back to the kite and stand it up(leading edge facing down).Then grab both brake lines and walk back to the handles.If you have any twists pick up the relevant handle and un twist it.Once this is done lay hadles together in one hand,rotate 180 degrees and your ready to go.Don't forget to pick up your stake.I was shown this by the guys I fly with and have had no problems as of yet.This is only the way I find easiest,everyone has there own method,to each his/her own I say.

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Im going to try the bottom line single wrap technique JB. That seems to be my only issue when winding. Asides from that I have minimal issues, even being new to Quad lines.

All I do, is just keep the L/R lines separated in my hand while winding (top and bottom larksheaded L and R respectively) by keeping the L lines ontop my index finger, and my R lines inbetween my 2nd/3rd finger, and wind tight. As long as the lines are separated while winding, they unwind the same way 99% of the time. The only issue I was having was the bottom line slack (which caused me bunching while winding up), but with that initial bottom line wrap, that should take care of it, and also allow me to keep my handles attached! Thanks for that little trick. :)

When I'm setting up, I just repeat the process in reverse -- keeping L and R lines separated in one hand, while unwinding with the other (keeping tension between left and right hand, NOT between kite stake and hand holding the lines). Once unwound, just give the L and R lines a jiggle before attaching to the kite - set up handles, and Im good to go. Now, with being able to keep the handles attached, I should just be able to rotate the handles to get top and bottom twists out (as stated in Jbs initial post) and fly off.

Think I might hook a vacuum to my nose to get rid of this head congestion, so I can test this out today!! lol

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one of the main things, i have learned from trying different ways of winding lines ( winding line on the handles , separating line from handles , etc )

whatever steps you chose to wind up ... and it works , do those steps in the same order every time

less frustrating tangles :kid_cussing: and you are in the air quickly

i wind up using

the same method john describes ... with one addition, i have a short stake that i slide under the bungee cord holding the handles and line on the winder

compact and easy to store

cheers

terry w

ISLAND QUAD

Edited by terry w
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Lynn and I both use the JB method of winding our lines, except that we wind from the handle end each time, which turns the lines end to end each time we set up. That spreads the wear caused from lines sliding on each other.

We disconnect the handles, as the next time we fly, we might want to use a longer or shorter line set.

No figure eight.

Has worked very well for us for several years.

Thanks John.

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Well done JB!

One thing I want to stress, Mainly because it can't be stressed enough, is to always set your kite up and "park" it with the leading edge down. This is to keep your kite from self launching and becoming a hazard to others. This is especially important at festivals, with so many people around.

BTW JB, I love your kitestake......... :kid_loved:

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I'll bet the store owners hate this video ... now they won't be selling as many line sets.

Good video, even if you do demo the beginners method of circle winding. Seriously, it should really help a lot of folks. The pseudo wraps were well covered and keeping the ends from flopping around, as well as, how to position the kite were well presented.

A short companion video showing how to tie a larks head knot should be considered for your todo list.

Thanks,

Tom

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Good video, even if you do demo the beginners method of circle winding.

Hey, figure eight is good if you need the extra wrist exercise. ;)

Thanks all for the encouragement and kudos!

Just finished rendering the 3D tutorial (catch and throw), about to do additional videos for kite assembly and tear down, flat relaunching (leading edge away and leading edge towards you), as well as light wind techniques... Please understand, all the work I've put into these, most of them will be going into the Kitelife subscribers area, but the essentials like line winding, assembly and a few other items will be on YouTube for all to see.

Also, the videos on Kitelife will be in both 1280x720 HD resolution, as well as versions for iPod. ;)

Many more on the near horizon... Clockwork, tuning theory, 360s, kite inertia, etc, etc, etc, etc, sky is the limit.

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I noticed an extra piece of hardware on your third finger, left hand.....what exactly is that??????:)B)

Great vid JB...well done.....Kudos to the videographer :excl:

Leave it to the TV guy to find an editing error!!!!! (not a winding method error mind you).

When you left the handles to walk down to the kite the handles were resting on each other on one side, right over left. When you come back to the stake winding the lines, the handles are in the left right, separate side configuration that you demo'd first.

Ooops! :kid_loved::kid_loved:

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I think i need a Kitelife Subscription !............................:kid_smartass:

Hehehehe, hey, I had to do it... Thanks for the motivation. :kid_smartass: < back at'cha!

LOL Rich - I caught that handle placement difference before I uploaded, but it's a small item (no ill effect) and I didn't feel it was worth re-filming that whole sequence... Darned TV guys! :P

Besides, I did say that the separated handles are my preferred method... Hardware, yeah, feels good!

JB+TK=Kitelife. :D

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Bought a SLE last week from kiteconnection. Watched video's several times. Spent hours untangling lines on 3 different occasions. Frustrated. Returned kite for refund.

So sad to hear you experienced tangles and threw in the towel!

I've found that IF I do exactly as John Barresi instructed in his video/s, I have no problems at all.

I too am a relatively new flier. It just takes some patience. By winding and unwinding the lines correctly, all goes well.

The best(est) method is having someone, with a little experience, actually show you how, not only winding/unwinding but getting you launched and such. I find seeing it in person really sinks in... if I can do it anyone can!

If you decide to try it again (which you should and I hope you do) find someone to get you started. There are so many flyers eager to help!

It's such an awesome experience, I'd hate to think a few tangles has ruined your (future) joy of flying. kid_smartass.gif

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