Zen frame choices/recommendations

[Joe B]

I will likely be ordering a Zen in the near future but I'm debating what frame to purchase with it. In addition to the Zen frame itself, I've heard talk of using a Race Rod frame or hybrid frames of assorted variations. If you have a Zen, could you please chime in on what frame you're using and why you have said preference? What pros or cons are associated with your frame choice, etc?

[REVflyer]

I'm using the stock ZEN frame.

I like the extra flex and am even using it another one of my 1point5 sized SUL kites as well. My Zen is slightly off of the approved standard though, not recommended by the BENmeister or Bazzer, (but suits my purposes exactly~ thank you very much gentlemen!) Mine is an SUL leading edge with extra reinforcing patches placed at the sail's folds and the exact center,.. more like a street kitin' machine, built tough, but illegally light in weight too. You can always add mass if you want it!

I figure it might get strung-up with some new lighting systems I had developed (which are being unveiled at Wildwood this weekend!)

[Morrunya]

For the Zen, I find that the zen rods, and even the race rods are too flexible. I believe the Zen with designed and built using a race rod frame with a 2 wrap center. The 2 wrap center helps to reduce some of that flex presented by the race rods.

[AldenMiller]

I figure it might get strung-up with some new lighting systems I had developed (which are being unveiled at Wildwood this weekend!)

I still don't understand how you think that kite is going to fly with a 12 volt deep cycle marine battery attached!

-Alden

[Felix]

I still don't understand how you think that kite is going to fly with a 12 volt deep cycle marine battery attached!

-Alden

I'm going with the Xen option rather than the VMware one according to my advisor on the basis of expense... <grins>

The recently posted frame weights make for interesting reading but probably do not relate to a marine battery.

Felix

[REVflyer]

white LEDs (82 inches worth), 3 lights for every two inches plus two micro-mini 9 (maybe 12~ can't remember) volt batteries. They last three hours but are very bright until then. There are also mercury switches to flick 'em off and on in motion,.... with 3 Red LEDs at the corners of the downspars/along the bottom. The rigs are mounted by punching tiny holes in the leading edge sleeve and affixed with zip-ties. Initially I was concerned about allowing sand into the leading edge, but after the first couple of holes I notice all the grit in there already, so the heck with that concern.

This whole rig has a weight equalivent of about a standard rectangularly shaped 12 volt battery! I could fly it (on short lines!) in no wind, so Wildwood's conditions should be more than sufficient. With any luck I can convince the Rev Riders to mount up and ride into the darkness with me. I commissioned four sets but the misses is raggin' on me about the expenditure, so I would like to unload two of 'em and keep her happy!

Marine battery and wire for line-sets, that would be interesting Alden!

[Joe B]

BTW... which is lighter between the Zen frame, an all-Race Rod frame and a hybrid 2-wrap center/Race Rod frame?

[kwmf]

My Zen with stock frame is 249 grams and with a Race frame it's 231 grams - absolutely non-existant difference when compared to low wind ability of the pilot.

With that little difference it's more about how the rods flex and your preference than saving weight.

[rcom714]

white LEDs (82 inches worth), 3 lights for every two inches plus two micro-mini 9 (maybe 12~ can't remember) volt batteries. They last three hours but are very bright until then. There are also mercury switches to flick 'em off and on in motion,.... with 3 Red LEDs at the corners of the downspars/along the bottom. The rigs are mounted by punching tiny holes in the leading edge sleeve and affixed with zip-ties. Initially I was concerned about allowing sand into the leading edge, but after the first couple of holes I notice all the grit in there already, so the heck with that concern.

This whole rig has a weight equalivent of about a standard rectangularly shaped 12 volt battery! I could fly it (on short lines!) in no wind, so Wildwood's conditions should be more than sufficient. With any luck I can convince the Rev Riders to mount up and ride into the darkness with me. I commissioned four sets but the misses is raggin' on me about the expenditure, so I would like to unload two of 'em and keep her happy!

Marine battery and wire for line-sets, that would be interesting Alden!

I'm in!!!!!!!!!!!

[REVflyer]

Hi Rich, pick the winged weapon you'd want to mount a set on.

We'll give 'em a spankin' and see if they can survive our flailing styles! If not, we'll make some more modifications until it does what we expect (survive or even thrive!) Dugard is an electrically minded computer/phone-system geek by profession and has all the proper tools committed to his travel bag. Can't you just see 'em winkin' off & on as we execute perfectly timed "falling leaves" to end our demo?

Ideally, I'd like to see the LEDs fire in sequence (like runway landing lights at the airport), starting at the 2 wing tips and meeting at the center. Even a winking mechanism is adding more weight though, that may mean shorting the overall lengths of the strands. I wouldn't know if a sequential firing device is even applicable to the product. Right now they are "on" unless the mercury switch triggers, we might prefer 'em on steadily only and let the flight of the kite represent all of the "visual action".

We might want to commission a set of all white kites for the team or even hang 'em on our Zens, but it will be fun experimenting. I believe you'll be impressed with our starting point for now though my friend!

[Joe B]

[KiteLife]

I use a race frame with 2 wrap center.

While they cup the wind really well for flat-footed fliers, the zen rods are too flexible for my active style... The leading edge curves, uncurves, curves, uncurves, etc.

The rae frame has more spring and stiffness, the 2 wrap center allows the leading edge to curve smoothly through the middle.

[Bazzer]

For me its two wrap centre, three wrap out and race verts.This was the original test configuration.

I don't like the way the Race rods over power so easily on the leading edge and give that runaway feeling.

But at the end of the day its all personal taste.

Bazzer

[[email protected]]

How long is the Zen's center spar? Or, how long is a Zen kite when it's broken down?

[portlandflyer]

Same size as a Rev1!! The rods will interchange between the 2!! Ends and verts are 36", center 3" longer, will roll up around 40"!! Got an old Rev1, so I measured!! Don't think any dimensions have changed too much!!!

[kwmf]

I just pulled out my Zen to check that (didn't seem right by my experience) and I can confirm that on my Zen and Race frame all spars are equal lenght and the 2-wrap center I have is the same as the full frames. Naturally the ferrules make the center spar a bit longer in total, but the spars themselves are all equal.

[[email protected]]

I use a race frame with 2 wrap center.

While they cup the wind really well for flat-footed fliers, the zen rods are too flexible for my active style... The leading edge curves, uncurves, curves, uncurves, etc.

The rae frame has more spring and stiffness, the 2 wrap center allows the leading edge to curve smoothly through the middle.

For me its two wrap centre, three wrap out and race verts.This was the original test configuration.

I don't like the way the Race rods over power so easily on the leading edge and give that runaway feeling.

But at the end of the day its all personal taste.

Bazzer

I wish there was some sort of flying style questionaire to help match the flyer to the right frame setup...

Question 43 could be, "Do you believe in magic?"

[johnnmitchell]

I just pulled out my Zen to check that (didn't seem right by my experience) and I can confirm that on my Zen and Race frame all spars are equal lenght and the 2-wrap center I have is the same as the full frames. Naturally the ferrules make the center spar a bit longer in total, but the spars themselves are all equal.

All rods on both the ZEN and REV I are the same length plus or minus about 1mm. That includes the center rod without ferrules. For transport purposes you can calculate in the length of the ferrules, however when the outer rods are connected to the center rod that extra length is nullified.

For the REV 1.5 series all 1/4 inch rods are the same length with the same considerations as mentioned above.

[imarche]

Thought I'd add some comments after we've had more time with the Zen in recent weeks due to the uncharacteristic light winds here. Still with the stock Zen frame. I'm really liking the low wind performance compared to the 1.5 Pro when we'd really struggle to get it up.

We are using #90 team lines on the Zen (read lazy ) so I think it does tend to tone down those nasty power ups during gusts. All in all, the Zen frame feels really good in our situation or if the wind is smooth but low.

I'd really need to try it on #50 lines to feel the difference.

[portlandflyer]

Recently at a local festival, I flew my SUL on 120'x50# lines and was a definite happy camper with the low winds that day!!! I have tried my Rev1 on 50#, but it had to be pretty windless to even try it!! But they are amazingly strong for being so light!! I almost asked the person, that had the Zen several of us were trying at the fest, if I could swap it to my 50# set to see if there was any real difference with line weights!! Kinda wished I had!!! If you do try it, give us some feedback, OK?

[wind junkie]

WHY DO THINGS HAVE TO BE SO CONFUSING??? I picked up my Zen back a few months ago and now i just found out that you can get race rods for it??? Does anyone know what the race rods weight in ounces for the Zen. My chinese symbol Zen rods that say Revolution Kites on them weigh 3.8oz altogether. Are people changing these out for the weight or for the flex issue or for both reasons and where can you buy them in the US or do i Already have the "race rods"??? I am fighting to find a nitch for my Zen and am just getting more and more confused about it.......

[[email protected]]

Here's the weight numbers for the 2 frames:

My Zen with stock frame is 249 grams and with a Race frame it's 231 grams - absolutely non-existant difference when compared to low wind ability of the pilot.

With that little difference it's more about how the rods flex and your preference than saving weight.

The Race frame used for the Zen is actually from a Rev I. The frames are interchangeable between the two.

Most folks are switching the frames out for the flex issue rather than to save weight. The stock Zen rods are a little too bendy for some flying styles.

You can buy it at A Wind Of Change for sure, that is where I pick up my Rev gear. Kent is very knowledgeable!

Hope this helps

[Joe B]

Confusing, to say the least. I was in the same boat not long ago, trying to figure out what I should do with the limited info that's out there.

As JB put it to me (and this really helped me understand the choice), the Zen frame and Race Rods with a 2-wrap center both end up giving you about the same wind range but with different handling characteristics. If you fly flat-footed and don't employ much sail loading technique, the Zen frame is great. The Zen frame is very flexible, allowing it to cup the wind more easily than a stiffer frame. On the other hand, if you do like to move around a bit and use more active sail loading in your flying style, the Zen frame may feel too flexy, with the leading edge constantly flexing and relaxing a bit too much for some folks' taste. The Race/2-wrap center frame is stiffer than the Zen frame and thus doesn't present those same flex issues for those folks and that particular flying style. I hope that helps....

[KiteLife]

Confusing, to say the least. I was in the same boat not long ago, trying to figure out what I should do with the limited info that's out there.

As JB put it to me (and this really helped me understand the choice), the Zen frame and Race Rods with a 2-wrap center both end up giving you about the same wind range but with different handling characteristics. If you fly flat-footed and don't employ much sail loading technique, the Zen frame is great. The Zen frame is very flexible, allowing it to cup the wind more easily than a stiffer frame. On the other hand, if you do like to move around a bit and use more active sail loading in your flying style, the Zen frame may feel too flexy, with the leading edge constantly flexing and relaxing a bit too much for some folks' taste. The Race/2-wrap center frame is stiffer than the Zen frame and thus doesn't present those same flex issues for those folks and that particular flying style. I hope that helps....

Joe B hit my explanation right on the head.

Both frames have their place (as described above) in the Zen, but I'm a Race/2-wrap guy myself.

[imarche]

Confusing, to say the least. I was in the same boat not long ago, trying to figure out what I should do with the limited info that's out there.

As JB put it to me (and this really helped me understand the choice), the Zen frame and Race Rods with a 2-wrap center both end up giving you about the same wind range but with different handling characteristics. If you fly flat-footed and don't employ much sail loading technique, the Zen frame is great. The Zen frame is very flexible, allowing it to cup the wind more easily than a stiffer frame. On the other hand, if you do like to move around a bit and use more active sail loading in your flying style, the Zen frame may feel too flexy, with the leading edge constantly flexing and relaxing a bit too much for some folks' taste. The Race/2-wrap center frame is stiffer than the Zen frame and thus doesn't present those same flex issues for those folks and that particular flying style. I hope that helps....

I'm guess the description about active RR/2wrap is better for sail-loading style of flight also means that the RR/2wrap handles wind gusts alot better than the Zen rods. So, if active flying is your style, RR/2wrap is probably the better choice. Or if you encounter gusty low wind conditions, RR/2wrap might handle that better.

[[email protected]]

After spending 2 months on the stock Zen frame, I finally picked up a Rev 1 Race frame.

It took a few days to get the right conditions to put the Zen up, but now I've spent a couple times on the Zen/Race frame combo.

I didn't spend more than 2 minutes in the air before realizing I would never be using the stock Zen frame again.

Acceleration and brake performance are where I see the most benefit. The frame doesn't over-bend as easily under hard acceleration, and returns to rest much more quickly after braking hard.

The stock Zen frame would have a tough time keeping up after a brutally hard dive.....stop. Yes, the kite would stop properly before hitting the ground, but going into my next trick/move would take extra effort because the LE would still be curving, uncurving, curving, etc. With the Race frame, this problem is gone. Stopping a quick stationary bicycle is easier, and clockwork turns are also easier.

Upright lateral slides are also much improved - not as much bowtie-ing in the frame. Horizontal flight is also improved, again, not as much bend in the frame. For the same reasons just mentioned, tip-stand landings are also better. Same goes for reverse horizontal flight.

I'm currently using the Race center-spar. I see why JB uses something different (2 wrap) for the center, as the Race center seems a little too stiff. Most of the bending of the LE seems to occur just past the ferrules in the outer spars. This puts a little too much energy into the rebound of the frame for my liking.

I tried swapping the Race center for the stock Zen center. The Zen center has the same problem as the Race center - it is too stiff towards the middle, with the added problem of not rebounding quickly enough at the ends.

I will pick up a 2 wrap center this Friday (hopefully).

The Race frame does not add anything to the Zen's wind range. It does take a gust better though.

These are all my opinions, of course, anyone's experience might be different.

I voted for the "hybrid" setup (even though I'm not flying it - yet).