terry w Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I say again, just in general to the masses, not in reply to anyone. Think of the BIG picture that full out organizing/requirements bring. You might be watching just your own kite in that mess, but think of the BIG PICTURE as to where this will lead down the road. Bart so much analyzing ... jump in... do your very best... learn something new ... if you screw up thats part of the fun :w00t: remember it is really all about having fun don't try to pre think what might happen ... LISTEN to the leader and it will all work out ... hopefully ! terry w ISLAND QUAD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauranyyfan Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hi Guys- I totally understand the concerns of both new team flyers vs. the needs of a group in a super mega fly. A pilot definitely needs to be able to achieve certain skills in order to become part of the team. In any sport, be it MLB, the NFL or whatever, if you're skills are not up to the level expected, you are not going to play. How many times do we see a professional baseball player in a major hitting slump get benched? or a pitcher that can't find the plate, pulled from the game? These guys that are benched, get extra hitting practice or whatever is necessary to improve. Here's a few suggestions that I always give new team flyers: When we fly alone, we think that we can fly great (we're not following anyone in that big window to evaluate our control). Then, when we need to follow in a team environment, some realize that they can't follow in a straight line, that they don't have a "handle on their brakes", and that slow, controlled speed thing, well...what's that? I highly recommend that you try to fly your kite following whatever you see on the horizon. So, if there's a tree, try to fly along the outside edge of it. If there's a building, just try to follow it as if you are drawing it with one of the tips. This will give you great control, following lines, and flying in all parts of the window. It's a drill that will definitely help develop your basic team skills. Hope this helps those sort of on the fence about the team thing. Once you see that you are in control of your kite, you will easily fit right into the team experience; and have more confidence to know you are, indeed, in control! I know we are not "Pros" in the same league as the NBA, NFL, etc., but as a young sport, represented all over the world, we need to act professionally as a collective group. So, if there is someone that it trying, but honestly, is having a bad day or just can't cut it, they have to understand that the 60, 70 or however many other pilots still have a job to do. It's not a personal attack and you will have your time to shine. It's a tough pill to swallow, but if there's a major wipeout due to a lack of skills, the time it takes to regroup can cost the entire team. We have to think about the spectatators, too. They don't want to watch a big cluster&%$* get untangled! .... just my .02 cents.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiteLife Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 The other realization of course, is that I've seen even the best pilots go screwy when surrounded by a couple dozen other pilots. Peripheral activity, losing your kite, varying speeds around you, other pilots who lose control momentarily, all of these facets (and more) can rattle even a capable pilot. Scaling up is the way to go, start small (team), grow (small mega team of 12), expand (grid of 16 = 4x4) and so on. It's really not that hard when you measure the facts, but all of the factors, it's best to layer on the knowledge like making a good stable cake. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JynxKites Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Sounding off, still a newbie when it comes to group mega fly's... I have personally witnessed incidents where a flier, who should NOT be flying in a mega situation, does and causes problems for the group. Yet, if they were told they were "not good enough" to join-in, it would not only ruin their day but also cause them heartache, a feeling of rejection, and may likely affect their future try's. I know when to sit-out... and if asked to do so, it wouldn't bother me in the least. I know my strengths and limitations, mega flying is NOT one of my strengths, hopefully someday it will be. The point I'm trying to make is: I agree with somehow certifying mega fliers for obvious reasons... but I feel you'll have to find a way to accomplish the task being careful not to break anyone's spirit. It's difficult to become accomplished at anything without many attempts, and mistakes along the way. I hate to hear anyone say (or think) "forget-it, I give-up!" Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiteLife Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I just whipped a couple of very rough, quick diagrams to show how the grid works... 25 pilots, 5 columns of 5... Kites as seen from behind, bodies as seen from above: One column of 5, as seen from the side: If you had any doubts of the basic knowledge required, I trust it's dawning now... And remember, this has already been done successfully with 50+ kites, more than once. Also bear in mind, the grid LOOKS far more complicated than it actually is, but this should serve to illustrate the need for standardized knowledge. Very rough for sure, and the end product will be a bit more polished (with supporting verbiage and video) but this is just a taste of the diagrams and information that we'll be making available. == Now, to get the juices flowing... Translate these calls to the grid above: "Rows 1, 3 and 5, face right... Now." "Rows 2 and 4, face left... Now." "All kites, slow forward... Now." "All kites, 180 (or turn to face the other way)... Now." "All kites, fly back to columns... Now." At any time, if it all goes south... "All kites back to grid... Now." The beauty of this system is that everything can broken down into groups by points of reference... It's really just a matter of knowing what # row and column you're in. The mathematics of the whole thing really does work better with an even number of rows and columns, i.e. 6x6, 8x8, as opposed to the 5x5 I'm showing here. Again, using the diagram above: "Columns 1, 3 and 5 fly up while columns 2 and 4 reverse down... Now." "All kites back to grid... Now." "Center kite (3-3) hold position, kites immediately around the center kite face outward to form a ball... Now." "Outside kites (all of columns 1 and 5, all of rows 1 and 5) face outward to form a ball... Now." "On my call, the center kite will spin to trigger a slow burst by both balls... Now." "All kites, slow reverse back to balls... Now." "And... Back to grid, now." Crap, now I won't be able to sleep... Too much fun. <grin> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bri Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Just Consider. All the Longstanding Clubs,Organisations,Members clubs.That are houshold names and work well as serious,credable structures.That keep going and have stood the tests of time ALL HAVE A Code to follow A Membership Fees A Handbook A structure to develope members The first thing also they ALL have,is sign here and commit to the code.Commitment by the members,,,,ALL OF THEM Lets face it,you wouldnt turn up at Forest Hills.Dressed like Ged Clampit,never played before and exspect to hit a -10 round and not pay for the round also or Decide ya wana drive,happen along to Brandshatch,point at an F1 and expect to just do it. A Handbook is a start point.Outline the Goal in that Handbook.Then commit as a member.Personally,i would not mind a small joining fee to cover admin/handbook costs. BRIAN... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Just Consider. <snip> A Handbook is a start point.Outline the Goal in that Handbook.Then commit as a member.Personally,i would not mind a small joining fee to cover admin/handbook costs. BRIAN... Hi Brian, Thanks for your post. This certainly seems the the way forward... So much was un-spoken. Then you find that folks just have not fully grasped the concept. The 'Up North...' crew were pretty clued up though... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I just whipped a couple of very rough, quick diagrams to show how the grid works... <snip> Crap, now I won't be able to sleep... Too much fun. <grin> JB, Nice work... Careful with the line lengths! Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bri Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Hi Felix I beleive so.Commitment to the cause and goal for Team and personal improvment. Rainbows,brownies beavers,cubs,scouts They all have a CODE of practice and Goal.Every Organisation does that works. Join the Scouts,thers rules,a code,a fee and improvment structure. Join the local golf club,knitting circle,model club or anything.They all have a Code,Handbook of rules and a FEE. I think a small Handbook for each member.Which outlines the Code is a must personally.Then all understand the structures.Whats exspected.How to improve,get involved. WHY JOIN any club,organisation.... Simple realy,it intrests you and you wana learn with like minded people.Learn from more experienced people and then pass it on. WHY Have a Handbook,code. Again its simple,then all members know what the rules of the road are and it also COMMITTS people to the goals and code.Nothing HEAVY,just explains what the jobs about and how they can play an active part,while improving the global community of kite flyers.A Handbook has a certain,,,Official,seriousness i know,but it wouldnt ask for BLOOD BROTHERS TIES,just a members handbook and commitment.Which keeps track of numbers and informs of the goals A good starting place i think As for the lads up North,,,,,,,THEY LUV IT,,,,SIMPLE Have a goodn all BRIAN... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrier Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Now, to get the juices flowing... Translate these calls to the grid above: "Rows 1, 3 and 5, face right... Now." "Rows 2 and 4, face left... Now." "All kites, slow forward... Now." "All kites, 180 (or turn to face the other way)... Now." "All kites, fly back to columns... Now." At any time, if it all goes south... "All kites back to grid... Now." The beauty of this system is that everything can broken down into groups by points of reference... It's really just a matter of knowing what # row and column you're in. The mathematics of the whole thing really does work better with an even number of rows and columns, i.e. 6x6, 8x8, as opposed to the 5x5 I'm showing here. Again, using the diagram above: "Columns 1, 3 and 5 fly up while columns 2 and 4 reverse down... Now." "All kites back to grid... Now." "Center kite (3-3) hold position, kites immediately around the center kite face outward to form a ball... Now." "Outside kites (all of columns 1 and 5, all of rows 1 and 5) face outward to form a ball... Now." "On my call, the center kite will spin to trigger a slow burst by both balls... Now." "All kites, slow reverse back to balls... Now." "And... Back to grid, now." Crap, now I won't be able to sleep... Too much fun. <grin> You best get that sleep if you dont want to cause others to get brain ache too. Cos where are you numbering from and which are columns and which are rows?... Or ....could it be we just guess and fly it anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andelscott Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Cos where are you numbering from and which are columns and which are rows?... Or ....could it be we just guess and fly it anyway. Fair point - I've flown with groups who number rows from top and even those that number from the bottom. Although "each is valid", when it comes to a MegaTeam, I for one would prefer a consistent approach... The 'Up North...' crew were pretty clued up though... Yes, but they also had the benefit of some rather fine pumpkin and tomato soup as I recall! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrier Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) Fair point - I've flown with groups who number rows from top and even those that number from the bottom. Although "each is valid", when it comes to a MegaTeam, I for one would prefer a consistent approach... To be fair my post as usual was tongue in cheek or just plain cheeky, the diagrams have been numbered however the numbering system is open to interpretation which was my point, tis best nothing is left unclear if folk are to easily grasp the plot. Alphanumeric perhaps? Edited December 31, 2009 by Harrier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bri Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 consistancy is key,avoids confusion.Confusion,,,,,,Which then brings errors and eats into flying time, Confident,clear,consistent instruction is always best. It was Pumpkin and Tomatoe soup Not Tomatoe and Pumpkin,,,,Its the same,but diffrent.Call it Pumpkin and Tomatoe 100% of the time.Then everyone knows what ther getting Once call it Tomatoe and Pumpkin once,confusion creeps in and we have to many cooks spoiling the soup.Even call it Nut Pumpkin and Tomatoe and that alone can cause question and confusion... One common language spoken by all. BRIAN...dip ya bread and a couple of these help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 consistancy is key,avoids confusion.Confusion,,,,,,Which then brings errors and eats into flying time, Confident,clear,consistent instruction is always best. <snip> Hi Brian, Confident instruction reflects the knowledge of those receiving the instructions. This is, I think, what we are working towards. There has to be a 'contract' in place! Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone in Shoe Bob Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I've just had a look at the video Felix posted earlier in this thread and realized it wasn't the one I thought it was. No wonder Bartman and some others found it a bit intimidating, that video is just a the edited highlights, otherwise known as "The Scary Bits" take a look at this video it shows the whole Magafly and you will see Stephen didn't throw us all in at the deep end he started us off very gently and gradually cranked up the volume. By the time we got to the scary bit we were all well in the zone and cooking on gas. Oh, and just in case anybody is interested, I am on the bottom row directly under Jonsey's see through kite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I understand the concern about hurting people's feelings when they are told they do not have the skills for a mega-fly, but seriously that is not much of a reason and you can't do this if you are going to worry about hurting feelings. If I asked JB to let me be a team member of iQuad he'd say no. If my feelings are hurt by that it his not his problem and I'm foolish to think I have the experience or the right to be on his team in the first place. The world isn't fair. That's life. Get over it. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 I've just had a look at the video Felix posted earlier in this thread and realized it wasn't the one I thought it was. <snip> Hi Bob, Thanks for posting the link. The video link I posted was for a very short section just at the very end before the kites split to the sides and arced to the ground. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bri Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Yeh,cheers Bob. Always worth a watch that video. Cream Cakes and Mr Jones always spring to mind though.Stuffed are Benifits up....lol BRIAN... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) Yeh,cheers Bob. Always worth a watch that video. Cream Cakes and Mr Jones always spring to mind though.Stuffed are Benifits up....lol BRIAN... I just checked and the clip I posted was from the same session, as I said, the last minutes... "Cream cakes"? will we ever forget...? Felix Edited December 31, 2009 by Felix Mottram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone in Shoe Bob Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 . . . . . If I asked JB to let me be a team member of iQuad he'd say no. If my feelings are hurt by that it his not his problem and I'm foolish to think I have the experience or the right to be on his team in the first place. The world isn't fair. That's life. Get over it. . . . . . Bart Well said Bart, and on that note - I have been bouncing around a this thought for a while but I hadn’t posted it sooner because I thought it may be a bit controversial and I didn’t want to risk rocking this particular boat. But I think the time has come to take the bull by the horns. It seems to me that we need to ask or re-ask a few simple questions. What is this Register for? Unless I have totally missed the point here, the primary purpose is to aid the setting up and organisation of a block buster Mega-fly The next question is, Who will be using it? Well my money for “the three most likely to” is on Felix, John and Stephen there may well be others but that seems like a good starting point to me. If they are going to be the users they need to specify the product. They know what they need what the rest of us think is neither here nor there. So I propose that we ask Felix, John and Stephen to disappear off into cyber space and to decide what they need and then start to build the register. I would think that the majority of the list will be fairly straight forward as most of the world’s top teams will be included en mass. It will be us lesser mortals that are going to give them the problems. I feel they should take a leaf out of the Free Masons book with this one. Entry is by invitation only. Every one thinks they have an idea of what they are looking for and how proposed new new members are selected but unless you are on the inside nobody really knows. Not everybody chooses to accept the invitation but weather they do or they don’t it is usually considered an honour. They will be open accusations of elitism but my advice to them would be to congratulate their accusers on their powers of perception. Surely that is what this is about identifying those that can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) <snip> Thanks Bob, <grins> On further careful reading, I hope that the end result will be inclusive rather than anything else. However, nothing is written in stone <oops!> and everyone will be "mandated to contribute to the discussions". Enough? Felix Edited December 31, 2009 by Felix Mottram 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glider Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Not addressed at anyone in particular: I'm having trouble imagining how the registration requirements or pre-qualification requirements of IROR will be disseminated to flyers. I think back to WSIKF last year. There were people joining in the mega-fly who almost certainly do not frequent Rev forums. I'd bet that if the IROR requirements had been published on this forum for all of 2008, many of the people who showed up for the WSIKF 2009 would not have heard about it. I suppose one needs to build the requirements, then worry about distribution, eh? So, maybe the first year that IROR requirements are in place, many people get turned away when they show up, kite in hand, ready to help set a mega-fly record. That sounds harsh and maybe unnecessary if the wind is perfect, the field is giant and time is unlimited. OTOH, it may be a good thing to turn people away if the mega-fly needs to fit into a festival schedule and must be contained to one regulation-size field. If the goal is to establish a "by invitation only" group of fliers, the Kite Party model seems adequate. Dave simply requests that flyers sign up on the forum. If the organizer doesn't know you and your abilities, he asks about it. I really hope part of pre-qualifying doesn't involve submitting videos. Word of mouth, competition results, past experience, and most importantly the leader's decision on the day of the event should cover it. @ JB, Nice post on the grid. Dave Portland, OR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Not addressed at anyone in particular: I'm having trouble imagining how the registration requirements or pre-qualification requirements of IROR will be disseminated to flyers. I think back to WSIKF last year. There were people joining in the mega-fly who almost certainly do not frequent Rev forums. I'd bet that if the IROR requirements had been published on this forum for all of 2008, many of the people who showed up for the WSIKF 2009 would not have heard about it. I suppose one needs to build the requirements, then worry about distribution, eh? So, maybe the first year that IROR requirements are in place, many people get turned away when they show up, kite in hand, ready to help set a mega-fly record. That sounds harsh and maybe unnecessary if the wind is perfect, the field is giant and time is unlimited. OTOH, it may be a good thing to turn people away if the mega-fly needs to fit into a festival schedule and must be contained to one regulation-size field. If the goal is to establish a "by invitation only" group of fliers, the Kite Party model seems adequate. Dave simply requests that flyers sign up on the forum. If the organizer doesn't know you and your abilities, he asks about it. I really hope part of pre-qualifying doesn't involve submitting videos. Word of mouth, competition results, past experience, and most importantly the leader's decision on the day of the event should cover it. @ JB, Nice post on the grid. Dave Portland, OR Hi Dave, Thanks for your posts. Everything is up for discussion. Registering via the forum seems ideal. What I think, in summary, is required, is some way in which potential participants can confirm that they 'have read and understand' the terms and conditions for taking part, confirm that they 'have the necessary abilities' and that they agree to the conditions and 'sign on the dotted line'. It could very well translate to paper in some circumstances.... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithgrif Posted December 31, 2009 Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 To answer the question "how to let people know about this" I would imagine articles written for the AKA magazine, The Kiteflier (UK) and STACK organisation newsletter would go a long way to reaching everyone appropriate and capable. Sure there will be some capable fliers that are not captured by this but are they the sort of fliers that 'join in' anyway? The other thing to consider would be the public liability insurance aspect of this. Would an event's insurance (assuming that they have any) cover a random collection of 'unknown' and probably not invited fliers or should each one have their own liability insurance just in case. And no, I am not touting for STACK UK membership (which includes insurance) by asking this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 (edited) To answer the question "how to let people know about this" I would imagine articles written for the AKA magazine, The Kiteflier (UK) and STACK organisation newsletter would go a long way to reaching everyone appropriate and capable. Sure there will be some capable fliers that are not captured by this but are they the sort of fliers that 'join in' anyway? The other thing to consider would be the public liability insurance aspect of this. Would an event's insurance (assuming that they have any) cover a random collection of 'unknown' and probably not invited fliers or should each one have their own liability insurance just in case. And no, I am not touting for STACK UK membership (which includes insurance) by asking this. Thanks Kieth, I think that there are lines of communication for letting people know. I am very interested in your question about public liability insurance. We are intent on asking fliers to 'confirm their capability', possibly with reference to an established 'mentor' (not tester...). As a 'paid up member of STACK', am I able to ask you for advice on this? We can go to PM or e-mail... Thanks Felix Edited December 31, 2009 by Felix Mottram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.