1.5 SUL verses the 1.5 B Series

[ian4c]

My new 1.5 SUL Aqua / Black arrived a few days ago. Not been out with it yet as the wind had been good in the last few days. So have been out in the rain. Brought the Rev B in to dry off and while both kites were standing together I decided to weigh them bearing in mind the sales pitch about the light weight properties of the SUL. The 1.5 B Series weighs in at 6.9oz and the 1.5 SUL weighs in at 5.9oz. Just 1 oz between them! I have a question. How much of an advantage in light wind, is the SUL, over the 1.5 B Series? I am wondering if I could have spent the money more wisely towards my next Rev - the Blast 2-4. Have I made a mistake?

Ian

[ian4c]

Ian, I'm also curious... When weighing your B-Series, did it have a 2 wrap or Race frame in?

The Race rods are reportedly 1 gram lighter than 2 wraps, per spar.

Hello John

Really interesting and most informative replies.

Weighing in - Both have Pro 2 wrap frames. Digital scales.

Weight of the SUL frame 2.2oz / 62gr. Silver labels.

Weight of the B Series frame 2.3oz / 65gr. Gold labels.

Individual Pro rods weight between 11gr and 13gr. But most are 11gr. All my centre (4) are 17gr.

Ian

[fortflyer]

Well I finally got to try my standard B, as my area is usually 12-15 steady wind I mostly fly my Vented with 3 wraps down to about 5-6 then its race rod ultralight vented.

What I have noticed is for some reason the standard B is surprisingly better in ultralight wind than my actual ultralight 1.5 :confused!: I'm not sure if its just me or what I'm used to but over 5 mph the standard B starts feeling like a rev 1 with an SLE rod in it lots of over steer and exaggerated turning.

Now I did fly mine with the race rods and I'll tell you this I may hate this kite in higher winds but I do have a NEW ultralight its very very amazing.

On another note I see in this thread regarding handle adjustments, I'd like to offer a option that has seemed to help a lot of new flyers in my area.

Make a knot on the bottom of the handle 1' from the D-ring attach it there that way all your fwd and reverse can be adjusted from the top only, this seems top lessen the confusion on adjusting to most.

It's simple and you only have 1 option to adjust either in or out on the top lines, plus it gives that added brake that most of us seem to want anyhow without fumbling with 4 lines to fine a happy place.

Hope that adds an option that may be helpful.

[Felix]

Whatever the topic, techniques for light wind flying are just as tantalizing as strong wind techniques.

So much to work through whatever the sail.

If the lines/handles are set so that a comfortable grip in a high wind does not produce much forward motion in the kite then the long armed movements required in light winds come in to play! A sharp forward movement to de-power the kite can also be very helpful in arriving at a precise stop.

In light winds it will be necessary to decrease the brakes but accentuate the long armed movements in order to maximise 'lift'.

It really is the same process that is involved!

Felix

[sirrom]

Well I finally got to try my standard B, as my area is usually 12-15 steady wind I mostly fly my Vented with 3 wraps down to about 5-6 then its race rod ultralight vented.

What I have noticed is for some reason the standard B is surprisingly better in ultralight wind than my actual ultralight 1.5 :confused!: I'm not sure if its just me or what I'm used to but over 5 mph the standard B starts feeling like a rev 1 with an SLE rod in it lots of over steer and exaggerated turning.

Now I did fly mine with the race rods and I'll tell you this I may hate this kite in higher winds but I do have a NEW ultralight its very very amazing.

On another note I see in this thread regarding handle adjustments, I'd like to offer a option that has seemed to help a lot of new flyers in my area.

Make a knot on the bottom of the handle 1' from the D-ring attach it there that way all your fwd and reverse can be adjusted from the top only, this seems top lessen the confusion on adjusting to most.

It's simple and you only have 1 option to adjust either in or out on the top lines, plus it gives that added brake that most of us seem to want anyhow without fumbling with 4 lines to fine a happy place.

Hope that adds an option that may be helpful.

I am also new to the REV in the last year So for more braking I need the bottom lines to be an inch or two longer :confused!: than the top lines. I have a series of knots on the bottom and top so there is plenty of room for all types of adjustments Just not sure what to do with them. Someone said if thew kite makes a sound to get more brake. Is this true :confused!:

Brett

[sailor99]

You need the bottom lines to be shorter for more brakes as is being suggested, or the top lines longer. Try this. Set the kite up as you normally do and do a normal leading edge up take off. Land again. If it was easy to take off, move the bottom lines in to the closest knot to the handles. Take off again. If it is still easy, move the top lines out one knot at a time taking off with each adjustment. Do this till you have to give a very positive tug on the kite to make it take off and maybe even have to take a step back. Once the kite is set up like this carry on trying to fly for the next 4 hours! You will find you have to tug on the kite to move it forward, but you may also find you have more control. If you like it, great, carry on having learnt something new. If you don't like it thats fine too - we are all different. But do give it a few hours of trial - the easiest thing is to dismiss it as more difficult in the first few minutes but that is because learning anything new is going to be more difficult at first.

As to the kite making a sound, I think I know what they mean but it seems to me it is more that you are USING too little brake rather than the kite is set up with too little brake. All it means is that you have the kite moving forward too fast and essentially uncontrolled. just try slowing down a little. It usually happens in a downwards facing dive.

And welcome to the forum Brett.

[Felix]

<Snip>

As to the kite making a sound, I think I know what they mean but it seems to me it is more that you are USING too little brake rather than the kite is set up with too little brake. All it means is that you have the kite moving forward too fast and essentially uncontrolled. just try slowing down a little. It usually happens in a downwards facing dive.

And welcome to the forum Brett.

If it rattles there is 'too much' forward.

I am wondering if there is a paradigm in here somewhere but will need a dictionary first!

Felix

[sailor99]

Good thought Felix. Maybe, just maybe we are witnessing a paradigm shift.

Maybe not

[KiteLife]

Yes, I'd agree with paradigm shift... Been two years in the making.

The Portsmouth Rev Clinic is gonna be fun, will be a great exchange all around.

[sailor99]

It was a chance comment by Felix in a thread somewhere, saying about how it worked, that started me thinking about the idea. Can't remember the phrase he used to describe the technique - remind me Felix.

Edit - I remember "Long arm technique"

[Jeepster]

You need the bottom lines to be shorter for more brakes as is being suggested, or the top lines longer. Try this. Set the kite up as you normally do and do a normal leading edge up take off. Land again. If it was easy to take off, move the bottom lines in to the closest knot to the handles. Take off again. If it is still easy, move the top lines out one knot at a time taking off with each adjustment. Do this till you have to give a very positive tug on the kite to make it take off and maybe even have to take a step back. Once the kite is set up like this carry on trying to fly for the next 4 hours! You will find you have to tug on the kite to move it forward, but you may also find you have more control.

Ahh Sailor, where were you during my first few days?

I live 50 miles away from the nearest Rev flyer. When I started to fly my kite, I had had five minutes of instruction and 15 minutes of flying on a kite that was already set up correctly for the wind conditions. I tried to learn how to set up my kite by reading the forum ... let's see knot x on the bottom and knot y on the top if the winds are z and the sun is located over your right sholder. Otherwise, it's knot zed goes here ... aaaaahhhhh!

That form of instruction for more experienced flyers might be okay. But, a newbie doesn't even know how the hande should feel in their hands ... or really, what it takes to control the kite. Honest! I think that's why RS67Man broke his SLE rod on his first day flying ... too little break makes it hard to slow down the kite. Kind of like riding a bull for 8 seconds ... fantastic rush, but it usually ends in gravity and ground winning the day. Those were my first few days in high winds ... I was lucky since Illinois soil is reasonably forgiving. Even Sirrom2000, who has been flying for awhile, expressed confusion over the knot discussion.

Your instructions discribed a "feel" to the handles and/or kite ... I believe that is very necessary in helping newbies. No mention of knot x or y ... simply a lengthing or shortening of the top line to achieve this or that "feel".

Mike Kory helped me over several e-mails and forum posts to arrive at a reasonable approach to setting up my handles. My present approach is to make a guess as to the correct brake. Then I take the kite up and hover it in the center of the wind window with the top of my hands level with the top of the foam - B-series handles. If the handle is balanced about my middle finger, I commence to enjoy. If the center of pressure is on my pointer finger ... then I know I'm tilting the handles backwards to keep it in position ... I land and choke up on the top bridle. If the center of presure is about my ring finger ... then I know I'm tilting the handles forward to slow down the kite ... ie I'm using my hands to introducing the necessary extra brake and I need to move the top line out on the pigtail until it balances about my middle finger. For me, this concept was a brake through ... pardon the pun. I now don't scare the ground hogs so much.

Everyone recommends visiting a kite festival or a club fly for hands on learning and I fully support that concept. The brief instruction backdraft gave me at the kite festival has really stuck in my mind and been the easiest to turn into an automatic reflex. I'll get my chance next Saturday at the IKE club fly to see if what I've learned is correct or simply a bad habit that needs to change.

Actually, I think REV should make a video aimed at the brand new flyer ... call it the REV VIV ... Valuable Information Video. Address new flyer instructions as if the individual has never seen a REV kite ... lots of instruction that says "this is how it should feel" ... "no it isn't suppost to go 100 miles per hour" ... "slow and easy is how it is really flown". If you wonder what level of instruction should be covered, think about it as the Village Idiot Video ... then you'll probably be able to help guys like me.

Again Sailor, great explaination.

Cheers,

Tom

[sirrom]

It was a chance comment by Felix in a thread somewhere, saying about how it worked, that started me thinking about the idea. Can't remember the phrase he used to describe the technique - remind me Felix.

Thanks Jeremy for setting me on the correct course of action. john Barresi helped me a year ago but I only had flown a couple of times So everything said was a little overwhelming and of course I can't remember anything.

I will try this out this weekend in Lincoln City. I hope to be a the beach the whole four days. Then off to Seattle with relatives. Would have loved to be in Seaside with John and friends Maybe next time.

Thanks again

Brett

[sailor99]

No problems. Just remember everyone is different. You must find your own way of flying rather taking what is written here as gospel (It is just other peoples thoughts).

[Felix]

It was a chance comment by Felix in a thread somewhere, saying about how it worked, that started me thinking about the idea. Can't remember the phrase he used to describe the technique - remind me Felix.

Edit - I remember "Long arm technique"

In the context of this thread, what is the 'correct' term for a rattling sail?

I have another 'illustration'.

If the maximum forward speed of the kite in a 5mph breeze is as fast as is 'fully controllable' how fast will the kite move in a 10mph breeze? By limiting the possible forward speed of the kite at the handles the flier can maintain control.

I have never bothered with line length adjustment really. The lines were tied direct and slight adjustment made on the kites for the type of wind they would likely be flown in. Rev 1, light; Rev 1.5, medium; Rev 1.5 vented, high; Shockwave, medium and Supersonic, high. It was the same set of lines for all of them <grins>

[harrier]

In the context of this thread, what is the 'correct' term for a rattling sail?

Rattling, slatting, are the correct terms to describe the sound a sail is making when doing little apart from slowly destroying itself, when the sound reaches the point where the leach (trailing edge) is vibrating and buzzing like a small engine,just as a Rev sail does, it is destroying itself a tad quicker.

One thing not mentioned so far is that for a Rev to fly well sail tension is just as important as handle settings, to keep with the nautical stuff, Jeremy, you would not be sailing around with your boom outhaul slack in a decent breeze would you.

http://www.revkites.com/forum/index.php?au...si&img=1021

Slack bungees allowing the sail to show lots of leg, the sail will have a higher drag coefficient and be harder to control.

Might explain why you find your kite doing the opposite to JB's when the the breeze is rising above 20 something.

[sailor99]

Good point Harrier. That is a new kite, and now you say it I have not adjusted the tension due to laziness. It will be looked at tonight!

[Choccy]

If it rattles there is 'too much' forward.

hello Felix,

didn't you tighten one of our teal b-series sails because it was 'rattling' ?

[Jonesey]

to keep with the nautical stuff, Jeremy, you would not be sailing around with your boom outhaul slack in a decent breeze would you.

Depends on the balance of the boat ... but that's just me being pedantic .... what you wouldn't do is keep sailing with the leech fluttering, you would pull just enough leech line on to stop it.... and i think that's the problem here .... there are two types of rattle/flutter that people hear/see.... not enough bungee tension/or break(sheet tension) means the whole sail collapses and you hear the rattle ... whereas on an older kite where the leech itself has stretched it will constantly vibrate when loaded causing a buzz or hum.. and no amount of bungee tension will stop this... needs a small take up in the leech or a leech line adding .... personally it sounds like an excuse to buy a new one!

[Felix]

hello Felix,

didn't you tighten one of our teal b-series sails because it was 'rattling' ?

I might have suggested it but have no memory of actually doing it!

There is rattling due to slack bungee and rattling due to lack of brakes. Both reduce control in my experience.

Felix

[big bri]

Mr Hoath sorted my hand position.I was holding the handles ,way to far up.This also had the rattle effect on the sail.Holding the handles in a lower position stopped the rattle.

The top finger just overlapping the top of the foam,half on half off.I think JB also discribed the method previous.

Helped a few people since with that top tip.

BRIAN...

[KiteLife]

I train my guys to hold their handles so their index finger is matched up with the top of the foam...

In other words, the exposed metal above the foam should not be covered by your fingers.

[Felix]

I train my guys to hold their handles so their index finger is matched up with the top of the foam...

In other words, the exposed metal above the foam should not be covered by your fingers.

(Hmm, checks iQuad Practice 'handling' section on DVD from Uchinada by Masanobu Komuro)

Looks like some of your guys need some more training! <grins>

Felix

[KiteLife]

Yes, that's true.

[Felix]

Yes, that's true.

But did you see the DVD? <grins again>

[ian4c]

Now as to you buying a 2~4 .. its no secret around here that I am a HUGE fan of that kite and I think it has taught me a completely different appreciation of light air techniques... keeping it moving, using gravity, floating, walking backwards etc all stuff that has helped me fly my B's better.... I fly alone mostly so you need variation in your bag to keep you motivated ...sorry but I just cant do 2 hours of drills on my own.. so a break and something completely different is what needed and thats my 'go to' kite of choice to mix it up in the light stuff (I have a few speed series kites for the same reason in a breeze).

Hi Jonesey

So you fly most of the time on your own! Me too. Having said that, since the the Exmouth Kite Festival I have met a couple of new although not inexperienced Rev fliers. They should be joining our forum in the near future.

Anyway, what I was going to say was, one of the new friends has a Blast 2-4, hence my recent interest in the Blast after flying it.

Please to say my new Black / White Blast 2-4 left Rev today, ordered via Stephen at Kiteworld.

Will be asking you for some tips when it arrives!

Ian

[KiteLife]

I did see the DVD, I got my own copies.