Cartwheels across the window?

[bartman]

Hey Bart:

So the question is - Is it better to be able to do them, not knowing how?

Or knowing how, but still not being able to do them?

I'd much rather know it and not understand it than understand it and not be able to do it. My mind likes to know it regardless so it creates some turmoil there if it never figures it out! Makes it harder to teach someone too without totally understanding the dynamics.

Bart

[makatakam]

I'd much rather know it and not understand it than understand it and not be able to do it. My mind likes to know it regardless so it creates some turmoil there if it never figures it out! Makes it harder to teach someone too without totally understanding the dynamics.

Bart

"Too many mind.........no mind." From the movie The Last Samurai .Teach it the same way you learned it!

[katrina]

Use the force, Bart. Your hands already know what to do. Shut your brain up and let them do it. Once you've got your cartwheels down cold, then you can take a look at your hands and analyze what they're doing.

Consider this: Do you know exactly what your hands do when you do a 360, pinning the center? Now imagine doing a 360, but pinning the wingtip instead of the center. What do your hands do differently to make that happen? Take your hands off the keyboard and try it. Yeah, I have no idea either. But I can do them both and so can you. You didn't learn those by thinking about your hands, you learned by watching the kite and honing your movements till the kite did what you wanted it to do.

[bartman]

"Too much mind.........no mind." From the movie The Last Samurai .Teach it the same way you learned it!

So I'd say, in this case, "I dunno, I just looked at the houses in the background for a reference point and thought 'go right' and it did it." Somehow doesn't seem too useful.

Use the force, Bart. Your hands already know what to do. Shut your brain up and let them do it. Once you've got your cartwheels down cold, then you can take a look at your hands and analyze what they're doing.

Consider this: Do you know exactly what your hands do when you do a 360, pinning the center? Now imagine doing a 360, but pinning the wingtip instead of the center. What do your hands do differently to make that happen? Take your hands off the keyboard and try it. Yeah, I have no idea either. But I can do them both and so can you. You didn't learn those by thinking about your hands, you learned by watching the kite and honing your movements till the kite did what you wanted it to do.

Yeah, "the force." Almost what it seems like. But in the case of both a tip spin and a centre spin I knew exactly what dynamics had to come out of my hands to sort them out. With the centre spin I remember how I would pull it out of the air because my hands were going opposite in the pedalling motion than they should have been, but my mind knew the right way and I had to think about it to program it properly. In the case of the cartwheel my brain understands the dynamic of sorts, but can't translate it to the hands fast enough. So my hands know the basic, my brain does not. Sounds backwards and if it wasn't for the fact that I "get" the whole muscle memory thing I'm sure my head would explode getting through this.

All that said, as far as I'm concerned it's just moving into a different way of learning all the Rev can do and my brain will need to get over it. It's now a case of having most, if not all, the building blocks in place and just putting them together in exciting ways. The thinking portion may be becoming less important to me as the doing portion and I'm one step closer to understanding why it is not always easy for the real experienced pilots to verbalize what they are doing for the benefit of someone else.

As I give the occassional lesson here to the new guy I see more and more that I have to pause and think about the inputs so he can do them. Even the "simple" things aren't so simple to verbalize anymore.

Or, it may have all been a fluke!

Bart

[katrina]

So I'd say, in this case, "I dunno, I just looked at the houses in the background for a reference point and thought 'go right' and it did it." Somehow doesn't seem too useful.

Yes! Yes it is! You did rotations, which you already know how to do, and moved it right. You didn't think about each little move.

But in the case of both a tip spin and a centre spin I knew exactly what dynamics had to come out of my hands to sort them out.

ah yes. Of course you did. For you are Bart.

[bartman]

Yes, I did it, but if I had to explain it to someone else I'd be left with little in the way of useful instructions not kowning how exactly I did it. "Use the houses as a reference and just move it" won't help many people to learn it. That's what I mean by changing focus on how we are learning these things now. Moving past the thinking part completely and into the imitating phase of doing what you see based on the building blocks you've learned previous. Seems like it would be a much faster way of learning.

Just call me Sheldon. Everyone else does... for some reason...

Bart

[Felix]

<snip>

The thinking portion may be becoming less important to me as the doing portion and I'm one step closer to understanding why it is not always easy for the real experienced pilots to verbalize what they are doing for the benefit of someone else.

<snip>

Bart

When Alan Nagao led us in Berck Plage into a leading edge down 'side slide' in 1990 or there abouts he said 'just do it'. We did...

You know about this Bart, as I recall!

Felix

[[email protected]]

Yes, I did it, but if I had to explain it to someone else I'd be left with little in the way of useful instructions not kowning how exactly I did it. "Use the houses as a reference and just move it" won't help many people to learn it. That's what I mean by changing focus on how we are learning these things now. Moving past the thinking part completely and into the imitating phase of doing what you see based on the building blocks you've learned previous. Seems like it would be a much faster way of learning.

Just call me Sheldon. Everyone else does... for some reason...

Bart

I understand how thinking can get in the way of "doing". But it's hard not to dissect your performance at the end of the day, or when things aren't going as planned.

There are sooooo many variables at play during the cartwheel/traveling bicycle/tumble..... Lots of feedback from the Rev for your brain to quickly sort out.... It can be quite difficult to notice exactly which part of the move is going wrong, and when.

Having a good grasp on the flying characteristics of the Rev, or the "building blocks", is definitely beneficial to furthering your progress with this trick and any other. Once again, with this particular move, I'd say over half of the 19 total building blocks (from the B-Series dvd) are at play! Thinking it out won't hold you back, but remember what Einstein used to say: "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." If the way you're trying to perform the move isn't working, you must try something different in how you execute the move.

Persistence is all I can recommend now. Never say die, practice 10 minutes straight each time you're out flying. 5 minutes to the right, 5 to the left. In all the different conditions you can. Try adjusting your handle leaders 1 knot forward or back of your usual position, then try it again for 5 minutes. Try different things at different times during the move. Just make sure you give any changes you make a fair shot. Go with them for 5 minutes at a time before switching to a different setting or way of doing.

Hey Sheldon!! (J/K. Turtle reference?) There's no need to hurry up and learn. Don't get too frustrated with your progress

Good luck Bart!

[HedgeWarden]

I'm still working on cartwheels - no surprise there!

After glibly suggesting to Bart that one key was control over reverse, left to right and right to left, the next time out I checked my skills there.

Reverse left-to-right: very smooth, relatively fast and quite straight. Oh yeah - I'm really smokin'. :kid_content:

Reverse right-to-left: what the heck, I just crashed - then I took off for the moon. Surprised how different our skills can be in opposite orientations.

Anyway, I was reversing right-to-left (my preferred way) when I decided to stop and do a slow bicycle rotation (now to be called a pinwheel, by historic precedence, I believe). Except I didn't achieve the stop before the rotation - wow, a somewhat ragged but definite cartwheel.

Of course that was not repeatable. But it was great fun to see a cartwheel at the end of my lines. :P

JB gave me a tip. As my Medicare eligible brain interpreted and remembered it: Do a 1/4 rotation while moving in desired direction; stop; then start moving and doing another 1/4 rotation. Four 1/4 rotations make a full, and the horizontal movement makes a cartwheel in stop motion. Repeat, reducing the stop time ... until ...

Well, my memory may have mangled part of the instructions, but that is the idea that I plan to use.

Fair winds

(Oh, we just lost the top of a tree in the wind, partially blocking the road in front of our property.)

[bartman]

I probably gathered "how-tos" from about five people at WSIKF and then a number of people on the forums. No one idea was the magic pill for me. I think I'm using a combination of about half right now.

After work today I darted out for an hour with the specific purpose of working on the cartwheel most of the time.

Yesterday was no fluke! I was able to duplicate what I did again today. I had a better breeze at the ground so it was a lot easier as well.

None were perfect by any means but some were a lot better than others. I only had to "reset" a few times out of dozens of back and forth cartwheels.

I introduced another idea into the mix and started adding exaggerated inputs. I found this helped me when I had trouble getting the inverted slide to actually slide so I think it can help me again here. \

When I did exaggerate the moves I was better able to sort out what was slide and what was rotation and the cartwheel looked smoother. So my brain may win yet and I'll sort out the physics through all of this.

I can now say the cartwheel is within my grasp. I'm not ready to debut it yet. I've had a few spectators the last couple of days though and they might be wondering what I'm trying to accomplish going back and forth over and over!

Bart

[goestoeleven]

Yeah, keep at it Bartman!

I can't sort it out with any regularity . . . probably because I'm not putting in enough flying time. For some reason, I seem to be able to "moonwalk" the kite somewhat in either direction, but the forward cartwheel just doesn't want to work. I can "pinwheel" or move across the window, but not both at the same time . . . the combination causes my brain to interfere with the proper hand motions and timing. Like everything . . . more flying time needed. Wish I were out today (plenty of wind, but lots of rain with it).

[portlandflyer]

Add a stroke affected brain into the mix!!! I get all fouled up trying to get it all together!! Slides - check, rotations - check, together - ARRRGH!!! Had to work a lot to just get left to right inverted slides!! Things are getting better, lots of flying time will definitely help, confidence too!! That helped overcome LE right positions!! It will come to all of us that keep trying, practice makes perfect!!!

[bartman]

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart

[portlandflyer]

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart

A bad case of TMI - Too Much Input!!! Use the force, Luke!! (Bart)

[[email protected]]

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart

Thinking too much about a subject is one thing, obsessing over it is another

[Felix]

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart

OK, I know that syndrome! The next level is, of course, to do it in team/grid.

Arkwright and Granville are terms that might not be generally familiar but refer to team moves that are not far away from synchronous cartwheels...

Felix

[khalathur]

I dreamt about it last night!

Someone had the nerve to tell me that I was ending the cartwheels facing the wrong way so I had to go back to sqaure one and sort it all out again. Geez!

Bart

I know just what you mean. When I first got bicycle/pinwheel spins working, I was doing them in my sleep.

[bartman]

After yesterday I know when not to bother sorting this out. I spent half the time trying to make a kite fly reasonably well without jerking all over the place. The wind was so up/down/gusty that I had to continually swap kites/rods/knots to the point it was just frustrating. I've never snapped a rod but I sure thought it was going to happen yesterday.

In the few good moments (maybe a total of 10 in a 90 minute period) I was doing left to right nicely, but not right to left very well. The weak side is always right to left whether it be this or an inverted slide, etc.. I wish I could sort that out but even with continual practice on the weak side the problem persists.

The rest of the time I was slamming the kite into the ground as a 20 kph gust would grab it at just the wrong moment and yank it around.

Usually if we get evening wind it is considerably smoother than what comes during the day. I've been out in the evening where the wind is comparable to the beach and flying is just wonderful. Lately the evening wind is just as nighmarish as the day.

Bart

P.S. I agree with the comments here that the proper amount of brake doing this is most helpful. Too much forward just seems to set it up for problems. I don't think enough brake existed yesterday to deal with the hurricane. Even the Xtra-vent wanted to jerk itself all over the sky regardless of settings.

[[email protected]]

I'm still thinking the Traveling Bicycle is a move that is different from what I see as the Cartwheel/Tumble:

This video is awesome! And was posted by Polo: http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/5073-sand-stones-and-a-rev/. Check at 1:25 to see what I'm calling a Traveling Bicycle. The speed horizontally is consistent, but the spin speed of the Polo is quite faster, which reminds me of looking at the spokes of a spinning wheel - it appears to be traveling horizontally faster than it actually might be. As my arms are in the "pumping" motion for the bicycle, I get this one done with little, timed pulls on one hand only, kind of like a (horizontal) single-pull spin and climb.

This video, uploaded by Madquad, shows some excellent flying:

. Check at :40 to see a beautiful example of a move that, IMHO, should have a different name, i.e. Cartwheel/Tumble. The Rev looks more like a gymnast (or a Slinky) here, hand-springing end over end. This move requires fairly dramatic, timed pulls with both hands, and, well....... plenty of discussion above on how its performed.

I think these 2 moves need separate names!

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here.

[johnnmitchell]

Think of how you tumble on the ground, how a bicycle wheel rotates on the ground and how cartwheel rotates on the ground. They are all the same direction of rotation in relation to the direction they move on the ground.

Now think of Michael Jackson how he shuffled his feet in the moonwalk.

[bartman]

I'm still thinking the Traveling Bicycle is a move that is different from what I see as the Cartwheel/Tumble:

This video is awesome! And was posted by Polo: http://www.revkites....ones-and-a-rev/. Check at 1:25 to see what I'm calling a Traveling Bicycle. The speed horizontally is consistent, but the spin speed of the Polo is quite faster, which reminds me of looking at the spokes of a spinning wheel - it appears to be traveling horizontally faster than it actually might be. As my arms are in the "pumping" motion for the bicycle, I get this one done with little, timed pulls on one hand only, kind of like a (horizontal) single-pull spin and climb.

This video, uploaded by Madquad, shows some excellent flying:

. Check at :40 to see a beautiful example of a move that, IMHO, should have a different name, i.e. Cartwheel/Tumble. The Rev looks more like a gymnast (or a Slinky) here, hand-springing end over end. This move requires fairly dramatic, timed pulls with both hands, and, well....... plenty of discussion above on how its performed.

I think these 2 moves need separate names!

Sorry if I'm beating a dead horse here.

To me both of these are examples of the travelling bicycle in form, but the second one, imo, spins too fast. It still looks great, but the first example is how I think it should look. Slower and more rolling in time with distance covered.

I am getting mine to look like the first example more and more. I still have some issues with speed of rotation vs. distance travelled and I still have cases where I rise or fall instead of staying nice and parallel to the ground (and in the first video I see this happens to him as well), but I have made vast improvements since last posting to this thread.

With all of the practice though I am still not really sure how I'm accomplishing it. My mind has yet to reconcile the physics of it!

Bart

[pwmeek]

The kite should look as though it was painted on a transparent disk which is the diameter of the LE, and is rolling across the ground.

[johnnmitchell]

rolling across "and above" the ground

[pwmeek]

Yes, the base line that the disk appears to be rolling upon could be any line from the ground on up. I suppose that it could even be at an angle or vertical, but I don't think I have ever seen it done that way.

BTW, this means that any point on the kite (in a properly done cartwheel) moves along a path called a cycloid . The tips of the LE move in true cycloids, while other points on the kite move in curtate cycloids.

[bartman]

Yes, the base line that the disk appears to be rolling upon could be any line from the ground on up. I suppose that it could even be at an angle or vertical, but I don't think I have ever seen it done that way.

BTW, this means that any point on the kite (in a properly done cartwheel) moves along a path called a cycloid . The tips of the LE move in true cycloids, while other points on the kite move in curtate cycloids.

I think using the logo as the axle of the wheel means that the LE tips will not make a true cycloid but pretty close. Aiming for that shape is the goal. Close doesn't count in this case because only one shape would be the proper look of the finished move. I disect my thinking on this exact same thing in my blog.

Bart