snareled lines

[bake]

Went to fly the Rev today but was running out of time, I was unwinding the lines off the stock winder but they are pretty tangled together. I know what I have to do but wonder how I can avoid it next time. Is there a better way than winding up all 4 lines together?

[Morrunya]

What I do is wind the lines up one side at a time. I will put two lines together, then wind them up, keeping my finger between the lines to keep them from twisting. Then I do the same with the other two right on top of the previous two.

I'm sure there's a thread like this somewhere either here on on Kitelife, but I just can't seem to find it.

[steveb]

You need a system and must stick to it.

Here's mine:

• When a flying session is finished, I land the kite straight downwind, avoiding anything like weeds that could snarl the lines

• Make sure all twists are out of the lines

• Place handles together, wind the pigtails around the shafts a few times to take up slack

• Very carefully wind the lines around the handles, keeping it neat and smooth as it's wrapped on

• I hold the handle pair in my left hand while the right wraps

• I keep the right & left pairs of lines separate by threading them through my fingers on my right hand

• When I get to the kite, lay the handles down carefully, untie the right side and larkshead the lines together, brake to top line

• Undo the left side lines and larkshead them together, brake to top line

• Larkshead the left line pair to the right line pair

• Carefully wrap the remaining line around handles, finally tucking the end between the handle foam

• If done correctly, you'll put a few hundred twists in you lines wrapping it up and if you unwrap in the opposite direction when unwrapping, you'll take all the twists back out.

Doing it wrong or loosely can lead to serious macramé issues.

Here's what it looks like when I'm done:

I'm sure other people will have other suggestions. The most important things to remember is to have a system, always do it the same way and never let someone else wrap or unwrap your lines for you.

[Aerochic]

Went to fly the Rev today but was running out of time, I was unwinding the lines off the stock winder but they are pretty tangled together. I know what I have to do but wonder how I can avoid it next time. Is there a better way than winding up all 4 lines together?

There's alot of great info on this thread, Bake. I just happened to have it bookmarked. :?

http://kitelife.com/forum/index.php?showto...l=tangled+lines

[johnnmitchell]

This subject has repeated itself on practically every kiting forum whether it be in English, Italian, French, German, Spanish and etc.

From Day 1, I have always wound all lines together on to the same winder. The video that came with my REV I back in 1991 had Joe Hadzicki explaining exactly how to do it. I practically never have a problem with twists, unwinding and connecting my lines.

One big tip! When you unwind the lines, shake them out very well first before you even think about trying to unravel things. They very rarely have more then a single twist and maybe a single line feed through. Pull them, shake them even fly them out as they came off the winder. Then take those twists out.

Next tip! Always hold the winder in the same hand when you unwind and wind. This will eliminate majors twists.

Next tip! Always wind you own line, especially if you loan them to someone else. Don't accept offers from someone else to wind your lines for you.

Believe me, this works! I have wound and unwound quad lines several thousands of times.

As steveb said, "You need a system and must stick to it."

[Jim Foster]

John is Right On.....I used the method outlined on the Rev video until last year, when I changed to the John Baressi method. Same as Joe shows on the video, except no figure eight. I just hold the winder in my right hand and wind with my left as I approch the other end. NEVER stand still and wind your lines pulling them across the ground. Separate the two pair a couple of feet at the kite end when you take them off the kite, wind from the handle end, and as you get near the end, wind slowly, and try not to let the ends swing in the wind. Lock them up on the winder. Next flight, attach the lines to the handles first, stake the handles, then unwind as John says, and when they are all the way out, remove the two sets from the winder, put one set in one hand and the other set in the other hand, hold your arms outward as far as you can and pull the faux twists out. As John says, you may have a twist or two.

Many quad fliers make way too much work out of winding and unwinding their lines.

[sailor99]

Yep I'm for John's method too. Xcept when unwinding I first attach both loops in the line set to a ground steak rather than handles. When one comes to pull out the fake twists I find it helps. I then set up the kite and walk back to the line end with one leg between the line pairs. When one gets to the steak keep leg there, lift pairs of steak, and it is so easy to untwist anything as there are no handles flapping about. I believe this is similar to the face shenkman (sp) method.

[johnesso]

I've put in a few questions to the forum which I'm glad a lot of people have answered and cleared up any dilemma I may have been having - so I guess it's time to put my two bobs worth in (Aussie expression for opinion/thoughts etc.)

Like a lot of others I got sick and tired of spending far too much time sorting out tangled lines when trying to set the kite up.

• Use two winders instead of just one.
  
• Rather than winding the lines in starting at the handle end I've settled on doing this in reverse.
  
• After arriving at the flying site, put everything on the ground and get out the first lineset.
  
• Unwind from the kite end and then stake the first handle to the ground.
  
• The lines at the handle end are never detached from the handle - if you wish to then that's okay as well.
  
• To check that there are no tangles simply grab a line in each hand and walk back to the kite. You've got to walk back anyway. Lay each line out on the ground so that they are parallel, grab the next lineset and repeat.
  
• Once you've unfurled the second set just place the handle over the first so that they are both staked down, mirror image over each other.
  
• Walk back with the second set and place them apart from the first, at a distance that corresponds with the line spacing on the kite.
  
• Put the kite together, stand behind it, reach over and tie the lines to the kite.
  
• Pull the kite back so that the top lines are taut angle the kite back.
  
• Walk to the handles, unstake and fly.
  To pack up, detach kite and wind the lines in from the kite to the handle. One winder for the left and another for the right. No need to detach the lines from the handles.
  The only extra time taken is to unwind the second lineset and walk back to the kite to set up.
  I've never experienced a tangled line since and the time saved untangling four lines is now spent flying.
  

[Baloo]

All the metods above work for the varying individuals. the important thing is find out which works best for you and then do it the same way each time.

When I first started I used 2 winders. Takes a little longer but hey if that is tha way you want to do it fine. Suppose it means you will only have 2 lines twisted. Probably easier to sort than 4.

Then I went to Watty's way. Use 1 winder and wind al 4 on but in pairs.

Then I went over to JM and JfFs way. One good point with JF's way is each time you set up you automaticaly swap lines end to end so you vary the wear points and possibly elongate the servicable time for the line set.

Stephen Hoath suggested to me (name dropper) that he uses an overhand knot to join the pairs of lines instead of larksheading them together. that works OK too.

I also sort of tend to listen to JB (name droping again) I got my lines in a tangle in some high wind as I was setting up. He had them untangled in a jiffy, obviously had lots of experience in untangleing lines. He must know what he is on about with line winding. Same method pretty wall as JM and JF.

Steveb's way looks good, but could lead to LOTS of tangles if you get it wrong, enphasis for looking after you OWN lines.

I tend to always disconnect my handles. No problem with leaving them on, just I often use different line strengths, lengths or even handle lengths.

Main thing is FIND YOUR OWN BEST WAY. Keep do'ing it that way, till you find a better one.

[fortflyer]

John is Right On.....I used the method outlined on the Rev video until last year, when I changed to the John Baressi method. Same as Joe shows on the video, except no figure eight. I just hold the winder in my right hand and wind with my left as I approch the other end. NEVER stand still and wind your lines pulling them across the ground. Separate the two pair a couple of feet at the kite end when you take them off the kite, wind from the handle end, and as you get near the end, wind slowly, and try not to let the ends swing in the wind. Lock them up on the winder. Next flight, attach the lines to the handles first, stake the handles, then unwind as John says, and when they are all the way out, remove the two sets from the winder, put one set in one hand and the other set in the other hand, hold your arms outward as far as you can and pull the faux twists out. As John says, you may have a twist or two.

Many quad fliers make way too much work out of winding and unwinding their lines.

Jim couldn't have said it better especially that last line.

Keep It Simple, not only did Joe invent a great kite his method of winding and unwinding has been a proven method for 20 years now.

I have recently gone over to monkey's version of just overhand wrapping on the winder it works great, the main thing is to secure each set separately and keep that pinky between the 2 sets while winding.

When unwinding it looks like a tangled nightmare but its not, attach to your handles and kite and you will be amazed how the 4 lines just fall apart with a little tension and shaking.

One thing I tell my 2 sons at the end of the day is WIND THEM UP GOOD NOW AND THEY WILL UNWIND JUST AS WELL. they have spent enough time trying to untangle a mess while I have been flying for 10-20 minutes, a few times of that and they pay attention to how they put them away now a lesson well learned.

[Aerochic]

I have recently gone over to monkey's version of just overhand wrapping on the winder it works great, the main thing is to secure each set separately and keep that pinky between the 2 sets while winding.

When unwinding it looks like a tangled nightmare but its not, attach to your handles and kite and you will be amazed how the 4 lines just fall apart with a little tension and shaking.

Yes, you're right, Fort. Monkey's version works really nice as well:

http://www.kitelife.com/archives/issue55/r...ons55/index.htm

I can't decide whether I like his way or the way we were instructed to do it in the video. Really the key is to just take your time an wind them up carefully. For me, having the pairs knotted together and on one winder works best but others mileage may vary.

[steveb]

One of the keys to the way I use now is wind the lines while the kite is still attached, so there are loose ends dancing around and tangling up.

You do put a few hundred twists in the lines while winding up but as long as you always unwind in the opposite direction, the few hundred clockwise twists are undone when you unwind counter-clockwise.

As long as the kite is attached, there are no loose ends to create knots.

It's a very fast method when you've had some practise-

• lay the assembled kite down

• undo the larksheaded pairs of lines, I always larkshead the brake to top line and left pair to right

• hook up the lines to the Rev's bridle

• walk backwards, carefully unwinding the lines

• once at the handles undo any remaining twists

• launch the kite

No winders to lose and less walking back & forth.

It works. I used to fly Revs infrequently, as the hassles of dealing with line snarls made me to prefer dual line kites.

Since I've gone to this system (taught to me by Dan Burnham at WSIKF), I've flown Revs nearly exclusively.

I've flown Revs over 60 days since January 1, '08. There is no way I'd fly that often with my old macramé snarls that took nearly an hour to undo.

[johnnmitchell]

The next time I go out to fly my REV, which unfortunately is not too often at the moment, I will take my camera along and photograph the step-by-step sequence of how I wrap my lines.

My winders are made of multi-multi layer thin plywood about a quarter inch thick. It is the same wood used to make boomerangs. It has a shape similar to the original shanti winder. I use a single long bungee which loops through the handle, which has the two ends tied together. The bungee is not attached to the winder in any place.

When I take the lines off the kite I take off one side at the time and tie that side together. Then the other side. I loop the two paired line sets on to one end of my winder. I try, but not always, to keep the two pair sets separated with a finger as I wrap them up on my winder. You can use the figure eight or circle method which every way you prefer. As I am used to the figure eight, I will continue using the method as I feel quite comfortable with it and I am not slow with it.

When the lines are wound on the winder I use the bungee in a figure eight pattern to hold them down real tight. You would need to replace the bungee on your binder with a much longer one to do the same as me.

I don't swap lines from top to bottom. Top is always Top. However I do notice that my upper lines do stretch slightly more then my lower lines. This I correct with the knots on my handles, until the next line tuning. I won't recommend either swapping or not. It is up to you.

I don't swap which end of the line is attached to the kite or the handle. I just take them off the winder as they were wound. I usually attach my lines to the kite first and remove them from the kite first, but not always.

I have never had any unusual wear of my lines at any particular position. Most of my lines are over 10 years old and have been flown hundreds of hours. Most of my lines are Shanti SPEED which were the lines originally shipped by Revolution. They now ship Laser Pro.

[antman]

i used to 2 the 2 handle thing untill john b and steve d taught me this method that is so fast to setup and take down .. i found a slightly diffrent way of doing it but its so quick to do.. first before anything you should always hane your end sleeves tied together in a larks knot.. this will keep them from bunching up from the wind..tie to the handles and let out the lines and then tie to the kite look for twists as the line might have 1 or 2 .. i have been lucky so far and thats it ... to take it down undo the kite ties the loops together.. and wind to the stake.. on the ground undo the handles tie the lines together and wrap it up ... dont do it off the ground or the lines will go all over the place and youll have twists the next time you fly.. THANKS GUYS foe showing me that better method even thought i do it a little diffrent i still got the idea from you 2..

[Aerochic]

i used to 2 the 2 handle thing untill john b and steve d taught me this method that is so fast to setup and take down .. i found a slightly diffrent way of doing it but its so quick to do.. first before anything you should always hane your end sleeves tied together in a larks knot.. this will keep them from bunching up from the wind..tie to the handles and let out the lines and then tie to the kite look for twists as the line might have 1 or 2 .. i have been lucky so far and thats it ... to take it down undo the kite ties the loops together.. and wind to the stake.. on the ground undo the handles tie the lines together and wrap it up ... dont do it off the ground or the lines will go all over the place and youll have twists the next time you fly.. THANKS GUYS foe showing me that better method even thought i do it a little diffrent i still got the idea from you 2..

That sounds very close to what I do, Ant. Whew! I'm doing something right! :?

[bake]

Good tips lads, Looks like I forgot to put the lines together last flight (last year) to top it off I never wound it the right way on the winder.... doh

Anyways got it all untangled and managed to sneak in a session today. I forgot almost everything I learned last year over the winter! Time to do some reading and rewatch the video that came with it. By the way is there a part 2 available to that dvd?

[antman]

That sounds very close to what I do, Ant. Whew! I'm doing something right! :?

well its new to me but so far so good

[Choccy]

Twists and tangles only bother me when i am short on time.

We've started to cheat by winding the left and right lines on separate 'paw' winders

Sounds like more winding and unwinding time but cuts down on the tangles.

The handles used to twirl around and through one another and cause most of the problems.

[sailor99]

I think someone who said earlier that you have to "find a way that works for you" earlier has it right. Using two winders in not sinful, although its not for me. Winding round and round is no more correct than figure 8s, so long as you end up tangle free at the end; I know people who do both. Larkshead or overhand knot - c'est la vie. I think it must be true however that a moment's care at the end of a fly pays dividends on your next fly - although it is a little difficult when you are cold and wet and the sky has just opened again!

[Jim Foster]

Another little trick Lynn and I use. I tie an overhand knot at the end of the loop in the upper lines at one end, and the lower lines at the other end, thus keeping the lines the same length. I larkshead the left and right sets at each end. The added knots keep the upper and lower lines lines of each set together. They never slip apart, so they never get twisted one line into the other set.

Just a simple little thing, but it sure helps.

These little tricks add up to less messing with lines, and more flying time.

[johnnmitchell]

Attached are a series of photos of how I have wrapped lines successfully for over 15 years.

[antman]

nice picture lession john m .. i have been doing the 1 winder thing inn my backyard.. it twisted up on me a few times but nothing bad.. whoever came up with this idea originaly was a person who wants to be out and flyng a s a p .. i dont know if beressi invented this method but if he did .. its a great one.. the 2 things to know are to have the lines tied and wind from one end to another nice and tight

[johnnmitchell]

nice picture lession john m .. i have been doing the 1 winder thing inn my backyard.. it twisted up on me a few times but nothing bad.. whoever came up with this idea originaly was a person who wants to be out and flyng a s a p .. i dont know if beressi invented this method but if he did .. its a great one.. the 2 things to know are to have the lines tied and wind from one end to another nice and tight

Thanks, All the photos were taken a few hours ago. I then processed them in Adobe Photoshop CS3.

If you want to play around with Photoshop, you can download a fully functional 30 day trial version for free. It is an expensive item to purchase, but there are ways around that. Just become a student at a recognized university or similar, then you can buy at academic prices for peanuts.

The single winder winding idea I presume came from Joe Hadzicki. It was in all of the early videos shipped with REVs. John B was just a young teenager back then.

[johnnmitchell]

Attached are a series of photos of how I have wrapped lines successfully for over 15 years.

When I fly REVs I always carry my winder in my back pocket. I almost always wear jeans or jean shorts, thus they don't fall out of my pocket.

I tie the top line of both handle together for two reasons. 1. to keep the pair from getting separated. 2. To hang them over my neck when they are not on the lines or in my kite bag. That way I never loose them. I never never leave them on the ground without the lines attached to them.

[fortflyer]

John, I like that bungee setup on your winder it seems to hold down the line in more places then a standard single bungee, thanks for posting that i'm going to try that tie down method.

[Guest groz]

My top tip is to fly as often as possible! I have flown quad line foils for a few years now (please don't shout at me!) and became a rev convert a year ago. It's a strange thing, but I find if you leave a kite in it's bag for more than about a week, it seems to be more tangled when it comes out. Flying everyday seems to solve all these problems for no good reason at all