International Register of 'Revolution' Team Fliers

[Bazzer]

I can say I would exclude myself from this based on this video. While the flight looked basic it becomes too complex with that many kites. The circles alone made my eyes big and I had a flash of anxiety at the thought of being in that. I need a safe escape route. Much more practice required for something like that. Thanks for posting.

Bart

I think that Bart has hit it right on the head. Thank you!

Everyone who is considering joining a mega grid must be truthful to themselves.

Can I actually do this without screwing it up.

Also the other important observation is .." What do I need to learn and become more comfortable with to be able to do this"

Most people can hold hovers in good wind. Well it isn't always good. Maybe that is something that an individual might need to brush up on.

Are your inverted hovers absolutely rock solid in any position and in any part of the window not just the center.

Speed control etc.

However you don't make a mega grid without people and this organization (not intentionally)may come across as being elitist and push people away.

For those being scared off or put out by it.

There are positions on the grid which are easier in different wind conditions but your basics have to be solid.

Your own truthful self assessment will tell you what you can and cannot do.

However you don't know until you try.

Be reasonable when you go to join in a mega grid.

If you have been asked to step aside before...yes it hurts.

As an iQuad team member in my earlier flying I have been asked to step down from an 8 so the team can go out as a four and really rock it.

Yep it sucks at the time!

But Looking back on it at that time so did I!.....yep it was the right decision.

The one thing is certain. The spectacle is amazing, To both fly in and observe.

Be truthful and try.

That is all anyone will ask of you.

Bazzer

[JynxKites]

I can say I would exclude myself from this based on this video. While the flight looked basic it becomes too complex with that many kites. The circles alone made my eyes big and I had a flash of anxiety at the thought of being in that. I need a safe escape route. Much more practice required for something like that. Thanks for posting.

Bart

Bart ~ We'll be the side-line cheerleaders!

[lummas]

JB, Felix,

Not sure how I missed this topic for so long. Must be the Xmas break and all the other stuff going on. In any case though, I think that this is a great concept and will prove to be very useful. As has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, anyone who has tried to lead a large group of fliers appreciates just how difficult it is and what issues are involved. We certainly want our opportunities for large mega flies to continue and to do so, we do need to approach them as professionally and prepared as we can. IROR should go a long way to achieving that and I will certainly be happy to help out where I can.

Keep up the good work guys.

Mark

Team Too Much Fun

[Felix]

I can say I would exclude myself from this based on this video. While the flight looked basic it becomes too complex with that many kites. The circles alone made my eyes big and I had a flash of anxiety at the thought of being in that. I need a safe escape route. Much more practice required for something like that. Thanks for posting.

Bart

Bart,

Please do not mis-understand me but is not the 'best practice' actually taking part?

As Terry W said you only have to concentrate on your own kite.

Edit. I remember sitting in the bar of the hotel in Valencia and realising how easily the square grid of 36 flies could morph into the circles. The rotations only needed to be a couple or three places for the individual fliers but the illusion is dramatic as in the clip of film from Portsmouth.

Felix

Edited December 30, 2009 by Felix Mottram

[Felix]

<snip>

Hi Bazzer,

Thanks for your post.

The last thing that we want to do is scare people off.

What we do need to make clear though is what is actually involved and what are the responsibilities of the individual fliers at the outset.

Felix

[Felix]

JB, Felix,

Not sure how I missed this topic for so long. Must be the Xmas break and all the other stuff going on. In any case though, I think that this is a great concept and will prove to be very useful. As has been mentioned a number of times in this thread, anyone who has tried to lead a large group of fliers appreciates just how difficult it is and what issues are involved. We certainly want our opportunities for large mega flies to continue and to do so, we do need to approach them as professionally and prepared as we can. IROR should go a long way to achieving that and I will certainly be happy to help out where I can.

Keep up the good work guys.

Mark

Team Too Much Fun

Hi Mark,

I did not mean to hide the thread in the holidays. Just finally had a bit of space to think!

Best wishes

Felix

[rcom714]

Awesome topic to be sure. Kudos to those taking the lead in concept , R&D and ultimately, implementation.

While Bart has taken the lead in setting himself apart as an honest assessor (sp) of his skill set and acknowledging it in the open (though given Terry's encouraging words I sense Bart is selling himself short!) and thereby furthering himself into acquiring the right tools through practice and guidance and run ups through others, I think it's important to note that he and Jynx (self acknowledged) are two of the only people that come the day to do this would be honest enough to pull themselves out based upon what they can and cannot do.

And there in lies the rub. There are others who will not want to take the sideline no matter how graciously they are asked to "sit this one out". Not so much because their egos are too big and they say they can do what's needed. Even though they have the basics abilities some or most of the time and therefore feel enough in control to handle the "big one", I think it's more they'll feel they're missing out on "the Big One" and having to watch from the side and THAT rejection hurts more than being told your skill set needs improvement. A very fine difference for sure but human nature and individual ego processing is different amongst everyone.

We all make accomodations for new(er) fliers to "join the line" when in small groups because not only did we all start at the smae place, we all know the learning curve is immensely cut down when a person is part of the concept rather than watching from the side saying hmmm and yea, I can do that. I can think of a few examples where thats been awesome for a couple and has failed miserably for a couple of others.

Human nature, ego, and realisitic self interpretation are difficult concepts, no doubt way more difficult that what it is we're trying to do,....it's only kite flying for petes sake!!!!!!

No matter how gracious the rebuff (JB being exceptionally good at it!!!!! much love and respect attached....better you than me!!!!), sometimes it just comes down to wanting to be a part of the whole and being rejected that is the core of the issue and not the skill set.

Make sense???

Guidelines and intensive training yes.

Pre-flight meetings, absolutely.

Dedicated chiefs on the field, absolutely

Radios, a definite must.

I digress....off to work

[Felix]

Awesome topic to be sure. Kudos to those taking the lead in concept , R&D and ultimately, implementation.

<snip>

Guidelines and intensive training yes.

Pre-flight meetings, absolutely.

Dedicated chiefs on the field, absolutely

Radios, a definite must.

I digress....off to work

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I think that we are trying to engage those people at the 'borderline of capability' both ways round. We need to encourage those who lack confidence and engage those who may be over confident. In either case tipping them over the borderline is the issue.

The reason I started the thread was in consideration as to how one could make a proposal to an event organiser in the future, especially with the possibility of a very large number of fliers. We need to somehow get the fliers to 'sign on the dotted line', confirming their understanding at the outset! <grins>

(Strangely enough we managed without radios at Portsmouth and Bristol.)

Felix

[andelscott]

Comment to Bart and others, really. Big *is* scary. I've not been in there, but it was good to be properly located in the audience at Portsmouth - probably better as I saw the whole display rather than being transfixed by one kite and the surrounding hazards!

*BUT* Stephen, Felix, JB, Dave E and others are doing fantastic work at getting grids of around 12-20 flyers together. This is a safe® way to test and stretch the skills so you can be ready for the full performance. It is also immensely gratifying to be part of, whilst remaining very impressive for any bystanders to watch.

[Stephen Hoath]

I can say I would exclude myself from this based on this video. While the flight looked basic it becomes too complex with that many kites. The circles alone made my eyes big and I had a flash of anxiety at the thought of being in that. I need a safe escape route. Much more practice required for something like that. Thanks for posting.

Bart

Hi Bart, thanks to you and everyone else for all your input on this subject.

The mega fly at Portsmouth was the first of its kind and so there are certainly better ways of doing it. However, one of the lessons i learnt is that it is still TEAM flying. No matter how good JB is he can still only fly one kite at a time (ok maybe two but that's it). So to make these things work we need a team and that could be you.

As with all team flying some moves are harder than others and some positions better suited to different skill sets. It is very possible to fly some sort of mega fly with most fliers providing you can keep a kite still. For example, holding at the top in that big grid is quite difficult and easy to fall out of. Being in the bottom row allows for quick escape should it be needed. There is better wind nearer the middle. Now bursts require us to face out so if you are not yet able to hold upside down and reverse back in then it is better to fly at a side.

The other thing to remember is that these MEGA flies only happen occasionally and so there is plenty of time and opportunity to start smaller and work our way up. Maybe this should be a key duty for IROR, to support and encourage fliers at smaller events to take part and create the building blocks for the Big Picture.

Having been lucky enough to be involved in these big teams i can say that it is my interest to get you to a level where you are capable, comfortable and confident enough to join in. After all, i would look stupid standing out there on my own wouldn't i?

[Keithgrif]

Been watching this thread with interest, time to delurk.

What is being discussed is admirable and I for one would like to put my support behind it as STACK UK ND, and to make it clear I will NOT be asking to take part any time soon :-) . Ainsdale's megateam of 20 was awesome but I am more than aware of my limitations, it was only the fact I was on one end that prevented me taking the whole thing down, I had an escape route.

As has been suggested already, the problem is going to be identifying those keen fliers who are currently NOT capable of this and letting them down gently without toys leaving prams. The small megaflys that seem to be happening frequently in the UK, in private, are the best way to get fliers up to speed and perhaps to let them see for themselves that they are not YET up to scratch.

I remember WSKC 2004 where there was a concerted effort to get a co-ordinated dual line (Fury only) megateam to do something interesting. It took a lot of effort by a bunch of experienced competition level pilots and even STICK PRACTICE to get it as they wanted, and then it didn't work well the first time.

One thing I should say, from my background in dual line megateams, never persuade (bully) someone into flying, even if they are more than capable. Just because you enjoy it doesn't mean they do. This has to be done on a voluntary basis.

[Felix]

Been watching this thread with interest, time to delurk.

What is being discussed is admirable and I for one would like to put my support behind it as STACK UK ND, and to make it clear I will NOT be asking to take part any time soon :-) . Ainsdale's megateam of 20 was awesome but I am more than aware of my limitations, it was only the fact I was on one end that prevented me taking the whole thing down, I had an escape route.

As has been suggested already, the problem is going to be identifying those keen fliers who are currently NOT capable of this and letting them down gently without toys leaving prams. The small megaflys that seem to be happening frequently in the UK, in private, are the best way to get fliers up to speed and perhaps to let them see for themselves that they are not YET up to scratch.

<snip>

Hi Keith,

Glad to know you are watching. It is a bit reminiscent of the Sunday league thing all those years ago. How to get everyone involved?

I can remember one November event. I had ducked out of the 2 line stuff, the wind was very light and I did 50 x 360 degree circuits with the Rev1. Also found that I could power the kite up in 180 wing tip turns in zero breeze and gain massive amounts of forward ground...

NB You did not have an escape route! I got out of the way <grins>

Felix

[Stone in Shoe Bob]

I can say I would exclude myself from this based on this video. While the flight looked basic it becomes too complex with that many kites. The circles alone made my eyes big and I had a flash of anxiety at the thought of being in that. I need a safe escape route. Much more practice required for something like that. Thanks for posting. Bart

Hay Bartman, don’t be so quick to put yourself down. I set off for that weekend excited at the show I was expecting to see. I had volunteered for ground crew so that one day I could say I had been part of it, I never, (okay I dreamed), but I never really, not for one second, believed I would actually be part of it. But the conditions that weekend were excellent, the teams flew the grid (I believe for the first time in a public arena) on the Saturday and flushed with their success decided to up the anti on Sunday. I was asked to step in I didn’t believe I was up to it but somebody had faith in me and told me my country needed me. What could a man do? I was bricking it but trust me it was worth it took my mates 3 days to wipe the smile off my face. Best cherry I’ve ever popped.

I’ve never flown with you so I can’t say, but if somebody you respect and trust tells you, you are up to it, think very hard before you say no.

P.S. The above post was composed in Word when I saw your post,then I thought I had better ge up to date wit the thread before posting and came across this.

When it's all said and done, remember, there's liable to be 1/2 a dozen people who aren't half as good as you are, trying to get to the same place... We're all family.

Do we need to say more? If you respect him, trust him.

[Felix]

Hay Bartman, don't be so quick to put yourself down. I set off for that weekend excited at the show I was expecting to see. I had volunteered for ground crew so that one day I could say I had been part of it, I never, (okay I dreamed), but I never really, not for one second, believed I would actually be part of it. But the conditions that weekend were excellent, the teams flew the grid (I believe for the first time in a public arena) on the Saturday and flushed with their success decided to up the anti on Sunday. I was asked to step in I didn't believe I was up to it but somebody had faith in me and told me my country needed me. What could a man do? I was bricking it but trust me it was worth it took my mates 3 days to wipe the smile off my face. Best cherry I've ever popped.

I've never flown with you so I can't say, but if somebody you respect and trust tells you, you are up to it, think very hard before you say no.

P.S. The above post was composed in Word when I saw your post,then I thought I had better ge up to date wit the thread before posting and came across this.

Do we need to say more? If you respect him, trust him.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your post.

We are trying to define a fine line. Every little helps...

I think, however that a consensus is becoming apparent and that we should be able to discuss more detailed proposals soon.

Hopefully, JB will be able to change the title of the thread slightly to <International Register of 'Revolution' ...Mega... Team Fliers>

Felix

[bartman]

Mmmmm, wow. wasn't expecting to trigger a flood of responses with my comment. Where to start?

Damned if you do, damned if you don't? Can't be ready for it unless you do it? Catch 22? Need experience to get a job, but can't get a job to get experience? All of this sort of comes to mind.

I just started flying in the same air space with others this past spring. It was scary and that was with far less kites in the air. You could say I went from 1 kite in the space to 2 then 3 then 11 which was our "mini-mega-fly" in June that Terry is referring to. I was crapping bricks and always managed to fall out of the air on the bottom pass. After it was all over and I started breathing again, yeah, it was a hoot and probably I did walk around looking like the cat that ate the canary for days.

To me it seems that one needs to work up to the numbers. I guess that is what a lot of others have said too. I agree that you can't work to that point on your own. At some moment you need to step up to the plate and swing. You may strike out, you may not. But, should you be swinging in the major league or the school ground diamond?

Someone needs to make that call before it gets big. Sort of like elimination rounds of American Idol. I'd much rather someone tell me to sit it out than be the one that brings down an entire column. Sure, it won't feel good, but the alternative will feel much worse.

Perhaps Jynx and myself are underestimating our abilities, erring on the side of caution as it were. A lot of people take the opposite view and jump in with both feet regardless of the possible outcome. For myself, I get anxious which leads to mistakes. A distraction, which happens to me a lot even when it is just me and an empty field, sends the kite out of control. Okay when I'm with myself, not so good with others around. Practice is the only thing that can help that.

The 11 person mini-mega-fly here did teach me a lot. And, I mean A LOT. I went away and worked on things that would have helped me in that fly and if I had to do it again two months later I would have been a lot calmer and in better control. No doubt about it, taking knowledge away from the group fly resulted in better flying all around for me. I look forward to a small group again. I would love to be able to keep working up into bigger and bigger groups.

So at the end of the day, maybe that is what has to happen for a lot of people. Start small and work up to it. Each time taking away new skills and areas for improvement. Personally, I may have two chances before WSIKF. Vancouver and our own festival here if we can attract that many Rev pilots again as we did this year.

One thing is for certain. After reading all of the responses since last night I felt a little bit chocked up. Not in a bad way, but in a good way when I see the people who are so focused on seeing everyone excel at this that they freely boost the spirits of those of us who don't feel yet that we are up to the task. Such a close knit community. I can hardly wait for August when I can meet so many of you in person.

Bart

[Felix]

<snip>

Bart

Brilliant post.

You are totally on the case and even at this distance I have every confidence that you have every capability to step up to the mark and deliver.

Your attitude is exemplary and your peers should offer every encouragement in the unlikely event that anything goes slightly wrong on the day.

Felix

Edited December 30, 2009 by Felix Mottram

[david ellison]

A common theme developing seems to be that starting small and working up is the way to develop skills and confidence. Flying with a small group and practising the basic holding patterns and on the spot rotations will over time help folks gain their stripes. Moving on up to larger groups will then only require a wider field of view!

I'm sure this IROR mega team discussion will encourage an exponential increase in Rev flying abilities. Good stuff

[Felix]

A common theme developing seems to be that starting small and working up is the way to develop skills and confidence. Flying with a small group and practising the basic holding patterns and on the spot rotations will over time help folks gain their stripes. Moving on up to larger groups will then only require a wider field of view!

I'm sure this IROR mega team discussion will encourage an exponential increase in Rev flying abilities. Good stuff

Hi David,

A lot of it is 'common sense' as we have seen...

Best wishes

Felix

[mrdenny]

The first thing that came to mind for me was the physical toll such an event could take. I think I read they were 2 hours during one of big mega fly. Regardless of how much I practice or "good" I get, I would have to disqualify myself because I couldn't stand with the kite in the air for that long. It's not the kind of thing you can just say "My back hurts I need a break". Just a bit more to think about. I know it was the first thing that came to my head.

[Stone in Shoe Bob]

. . . . .

I think, however that a consensus is becoming apparent and that we should be able to discuss more detailed proposals soon.

. . . . .

I was composing something for the open forum but given the above I think maybe it is not appropriate, PM on it's way soon.

[bartman]

Bart

Brilliant post.

You are totally on the case and even at this distance I have every confidence that you have every capability to step up to the mark and deliver.

Your attitude is exemplary and your peers should offer every encouragement in the unlikely event that anything goes slightly wrong on the day.

Felix

That is very kind of you.

I have to take a shot at my buddy Cowboy now. If he can do it this year at WSIKF then I can. He is far, far more reckless than me....

The first thing that came to mind for me was the physical toll such an event could take. I think I read they were 2 hours during one of big mega fly. Regardless of how much I practice or "good" I get, I would have to disqualify myself because I couldn't stand with the kite in the air for that long. It's not the kind of thing you can just say "My back hurts I need a break". Just a bit more to think about. I know it was the first thing that came to my head.

Oh, yeah, I see that point. I can stand in a field for hours flying around, but find it painful to hold anything for a long time. I would think, though, that if these events were planned carefully (everyone listens, no screwing around, people who do not have the skills already removed during some kind of "audition" previously, the routine planned before even starting and whatever else checks and balances dreamt up), should it not go faster?

Bart

[Felix]

That is very kind of you.

I have to take a shot at my buddy Cowboy now. If he can do it this year at WSIKF then I can. He is far, far more reckless than me....

Oh, yeah, I see that point. I can stand in a field for hours flying around, but find it painful to hold anything for a long time. I would think, though, that if these events were planned carefully (everyone listens, no screwing around, people who do not have the skills already removed during some kind of "audition" previously, the routine planned before even starting and whatever else checks and balances dreamt up), should it not go faster?

Bart

Hi Bart,

You are totally on the nail with your 'observations' which is why 'we' would be confident about giving you every encouragement to sign up... You are spelling out """everyone listens, no screwing around, people who do not have the skills already removed during some kind of "audition" previously,""" precisely the the concerns that need to be addressed.

Thanks

Felix

[glider]

I was composing something for the open forum but given the above I think maybe it is not appropriate, PM on it's way soon.

Great topic. My comments are on there way to JB. I'm sure he's thought of most of the stuff, but maybe my take as a relative newbie will help, being from a different point of view.

In brief:

1. Determine the goal of the mega-fly: break a record (all hands on deck), or Wow the crowd (ala Portsmouth 2008), or please the event organizers (minimal time and space requirements with only the most competent pilots)

2. Acknowledge site limitations: Safety considerations, field size, wind conditions, time limitations, access to PA system

3. Pre-flight: Pre-registration? (think Kite Party), set times for the mega-fly and meetings, squad leader meeting (mandatory?), flyers meeting, who's the boss

4. Basics for flyers during set-up: Own thy parking spot, stay with your handles, cut the chatter, pay attention.

Looking forward to the outcome/process.

Dave

Portland, OR

Edited December 30, 2009 by glider

[Felix]

Great topic. My comments are on there way to JB. I'm sure he's thought of most of the stuff, but maybe my take as a relative newbie will help, being from a different point of view.

In brief:

1. Determine the goal of the mega-fly: break a record (all hands on deck), or Wow the crowd (ala Portsmouth 2008), or please the event organizers (minimal time and space requirements with only the most competent pilots)

2. Acknowledge site limitations: Safety considerations, field size, wind conditions, time limitations, access to PA system

3. Pre-flight: Pre-registration? (think Kite Party), set times for the mega-fly and meetings, squad leader meeting (mandatory?), flyers meeting, who's the boss

4. Basics for flyers during set-up: Own thy parking spot, stay with your handles, cut the chatter, pay attention.

Looking for to the outcome/process.

Dave

Portland, OR

Hi Dave,

Good points... Everything requires 'acute' attention by the participants but we need to get them to acknowledge this at the outset!

Thanks

Felix

[bartman]

The age old problem. How do you enforce anything on anyone who is basically just doing it for fun?

We had this problem in another local organization I belonged to. People weren't getting paid, you couldn't fire them so they did what they wanted to fullfill their idea of "fun". It really didn't matter to them that their fun took away from the fun of the majority of the group.

Bart