KiteLife Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Bart, you've hit on it exactly. At the moment, those of us "in the saddle" are torn, trying to find the balanced answer somewhere between "certification by review" and "self-certification"... The plain answer hasn't revealed itself entirely yet, as there are two very key factors involved in each: 1. If we certify by review, we could assure a caliber of pilot, but it's a form of control and approval, one way or another. 2. If we allow self-certification, there will ultimately be those who aren't honest, with themselves, or others, but it would signify freedom. As you've gathered by now, the down side to both of these strike deeply in our hearts, as do the up sides. I'm hungry to hear more input on these specific points... The curriculum and standards will almost build themselves, but this issue (above) is most difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 The age old problem. How do you enforce anything on anyone who is basically just doing it for fun? We had this problem in another local organization I belonged to. People weren't getting paid, you couldn't fire them so they did what they wanted to fullfill their idea of "fun". It really didn't matter to them that their fun took away from the fun of the majority of the group. Bart Hi Bart, This whole thread is about addressing those issues. I think that we are getting close to a consensus as to how to take things forward with all the fliers 'on board'. I believe that the scale of the group is working to our advantage. I also think that there is a certain 'spirit' in the Kite Flying community that will allow us to transcend 'local' difficulties. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I'll be bold and say that "self" doesn't wash with me. I think leading up to the big grid there has to be some small grids to recruit. You can self evaluate yourself to the point of signing up and feeling confident then it goes to the small grid audition for the final call. Personally, it would drive me crazy to have to piss around for two or more hours just to get something in the air for 10 or 15 minutes. Seriously, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. No one needs to be rude about it, but in the end everyone will see the benefits of this and just think of the quality (maybe not the best word, but you get it) that mega-flys will demonstrate. Wow. I'll take it further. You want to be part of the mega-fly so you work and work to pass that audition that you failed last time. In the end you end up with better pilots with better skills to form bigger and better things in the future. I know it would give me something to get off my butt more and work on my hovers! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiteLife Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 That's my primary sentiment as well, but it's been proven that the true spirit of 'official' certification (and the fairness that will be applied) may not be understood by everyone, it brings a whole host of problems unto itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Personally, it would drive me crazy to have to piss around for two or more hours just to get something in the air for 10 or 15 minutes. Bart Bart, I probably would not last 5 minutes. We need to be organised... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 True, but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. I just watched Wrath of Kahn last night again. It is fresh in my mind. Anything worthwhile is going to have its share of growing pains. This is no exception. Just do it. Everyone knows in their heart that it is the right way to go. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 <snip> Just do it. Everyone knows in their heart that it is the right way to go. Bart Bart, From very very early days in The Decorators we had a catch phrase... It was 'Just do it'. We realised that considered speculation was a waste of time and that the flier, seeing the team mate in close proximity would proceed accordingly... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Bart, I probably would not last 5 minutes. We need to be organised... Felix I don't have the time or the patience to put up with big delays because people are screwing around or whatever. Not to mention the fact that it looks far more professional when something like this could be thrown together quick. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harrier Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Great topic. My comments are on there way to JB. I'm sure he's thought of most of the stuff, but maybe my take as a relative newbie will help, being from a different point of view. In brief: 1. Determine the goal of the mega-fly: break a record (all hands on deck), or Wow the crowd (ala Portsmouth 2008), or please the event organizers (minimal time and space requirements with only the most competent pilots) 2. Acknowledge site limitations: Safety considerations, field size, wind conditions, time limitations, access to PA system 3. Pre-flight: Pre-registration? (think Kite Party), set times for the mega-fly and meetings, squad leader meeting (mandatory?), flyers meeting, who's the boss 4. Basics for flyers during set-up: Own thy parking spot, stay with your handles, cut the chatter, pay attention. Looking forward to the outcome/process. Dave Portland, OR Good post, spot on with the purpose of the Mega fly affecting participation. One thing which is reflected in some posts is the lack of information on what might be actually expected of those who wish to take part in a Mega fly, for example if there is any information on grid formation, how the grid is actually formed up, quincunx or files, how long it can take, how to actually behaves in the grid (i.e. quit wandering around while flying is good) it has been well hidden. Perhaps as much or even more focus here on the mechanics would be a greater help in encouraging more folk to participate after all it would be a lot easier for folk to assess their own capability if they knew what might be expected of them both on the ground and in the air, obviously it is not easy for others to accurately assess a fliers ability to take part till the flier has actually flown the large group stuff in front of them. There is scope for plenty of information to be made available on recognised moves or routines for large groups to fly, this information might inspire potential fliers to give it a go. Bart has a point re self-certification, one mans honest view of his own ability might be based on a standard that in itself is unclear. Flying informal groups large or small with friends is fun, you can have as much or little as you want before going off to do your own thing. Personally my flying is self indulgent and totally informal, I fly for my own pleasure and have no problem driving hundreds of miles to fly with friends but the formal stuff? "Herded cats", Nah, it has to be a lot more fun than that before I would travel more than a few yards. One last thing a number of those who actually flew at Portsmouth and Bristol no longer seem to frequent this forum much, this is a shame, some way of reaching more Rev flying folk might need to be addressed if a reasonable number of International registered fliers are to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Good post, spot on with the purpose of the Mega fly affecting participation. One thing which is reflected in some posts is the lack of information on what might be actually expected of those who wish to take part in a Mega fly, for example if there is any information on grid formation, how the grid is actually formed up, quincunx or files, how long it can take, how to actually behaves in the grid (i.e. quit wandering around while flying is good) it has been well hidden. Perhaps as much or even more focus here on the mechanics would be a greater help in encouraging more folk to participate after all it would be a lot easier for folk to assess their own capability if they knew what might be expected of them both on the ground and in the air, obviously it is not easy for others to accurately assess a fliers ability to take part till the flier has actually flown the large group stuff in front of them. There is scope for plenty of information to be made available on recognised moves or routines for large groups to fly, this information might inspire potential fliers to give it a go. Bart has a point re self-certification, one mans honest view of his own ability might be based on a standard that in itself is unclear. Flying informal groups large or small with friends is fun, you can have as much or little as you want before going off to do your own thing. Personally my flying is self indulgent and totally informal, I fly for my own pleasure and have no problem driving hundreds of miles to fly with friends but the formal stuff? "Herded cats", Nah, it has to be a lot more fun than that before I would travel more than a few yards. One last thing a number of those who actually flew at Portsmouth and Bristol no longer seem to frequent this forum much, this is a shame, some way of reaching more Rev flying folk might need to be addressed if a reasonable number of International registered fliers are to be found. Hi Harrier, Your questions are completely pertinent... I am here <grins>. Having expended an enormous amount of thought and energy on introducing the concept and helping to arrange the Portsmouth/Bristol events I am now trying to build on that experience and help develop a process by which we can encourage new fliers to acquire the skills necessary to take part in potential future events. That was the logic for starting this forum topic. The conversation is ongoing and I cannot immediately deliver a complete solution. I hope that you will be able to take part in the coversation and will feel comfortable in making constructive contributions. Best wishes Felix Edited December 30, 2009 by Felix Mottram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 ... Personally my flying is self indulgent and totally informal, I fly for my own pleasure and have no problem driving hundreds of miles to fly with friends but the formal stuff? "Herded cats", Nah, it has to be a lot more fun than that before I would travel more than a few yards. That goes back to your definition of fun. For me it would be fun to build my skills to the point of getting in on a mega-fly. I know that it would be some of my time during the "show" but only a bit before I could fly with my friends again informally. For some, like you said, really not fun and that is okay to. Each to his own. But, think of it this way too. Is the mega-fly not fun with your friends in some respect? For me I see the potential at WSIKF to fly with maybe a dozen or more people from this forum that I would consider my friends. It pumps me just to think of that! I also figure that if I got the mad skills for a big f----'n grid then flying other patterns in a more traditional team size becomes all the more easier. Worth shooting for for me. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 That goes back to your definition of fun. For me it would be fun to build my skills to the point of getting in on a mega-fly. I know that it would be some of my time during the "show" but only a bit before I could fly with my friends again informally. For some, like you said, really not fun and that is okay to. Each to his own. But, think of it this way too. Is the mega-fly not fun with your friends in some respect? For me I see the potential at WSIKF to fly with maybe a dozen or more people from this forum that I would consider my friends. It pumps me just to think of that! I also figure that if I got the mad skills for a big f----'n grid then flying other patterns in a more traditional team size becomes all the more easier. Worth shooting for for me. Bart Bart, I think that the skill set gained from flying in the grid is fantastically helpful in respect of 'normal' team flying. I will say no more <grins> Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big bri Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Hello fellas,and Ladys,Merry Christmasto ya all. A few years ago.As a pritty newish Rev pilot.Myself and a few pals wanted to get involved more with team,flying at events,festivals and the like.Without the help and guidence of MENTORS[Captains if ya like].Like Sue and S Hoath,JB,Simon D,Felix and more.This idea simply doesnt work at all.Ther needs tobe people with a clear vision of what the goal is.They dont all have tobe world class or ex world champs either.I got quite sick of waiting for some premadonnas at some events,who decided to get involved at the 11th hour and could.Just because of who they wher.I think this should be a members club or organised in such away.That everyone knows whats going on.DONT TRAIN or TAKE PART,,,YA DONT PLAY,,,SIMPLE.Thats my take anyways. Also ther then needs tobe an outer ring of sergeants to further organise the corprals[Captains know who they are],who then motivate and inform the and privates.Once the structure of Rank[if ya like]is done and dusted.Then the goal has tobe broken down into segments and filtered through to anyone who wants tobe involved.People who wana join are prospects.Once joined they become privates.Before joining.They and everyone involved.Mustbe aware of what they are entering into.This structure will HELP,GUiDE AND ORGINISE anyone who wants to be involved and improve ther skill also. I know its obvious,but the more organised somthing is.Then the easier the end result and bigger the success.Could also be quite Fun,if done in the correct spirit. From here...... I would suggest its like passing a driving test. When i flew[and others]at Portsmouth and Bristol Mega fly.I was quite confident i could hold my own and ther wher people ther to help.I can tell ya.After Child Birth[watching anyways],its the most nerve Jangling thing ive done or been part of and im a pritty confident guy.I can also say,i wouldnt have missed it for anything. PRACTICE,PRACTICE AND PRACTICE is the key and being involved.Aswell as informed. The TESTs should be broken into lets say 12 parts[or however many required].Each part or each step of the test.Mustbe passed while infront of or witnessed by a corpral[you tube is a medium also]When the private performs the Test.Once all parts are completed....JOBS A GOODN,they can then help others and keep practicing,BUT at some stage,be watched,accessed by a higher Rank. Its i think a priority everyone is able to feel they can be involved.NO exclusivity,BUT.When entering into the commitment has tobe explained what the goals are. A rating on here.Like we have would be fun,Captain,Sergeant,,,,,etc,etc Privates could have the number after ther rank[private 4 would mean ther at level 4 or achieved task4] This keeps everything visable and all contacts are easy to contact. A Monthly post of Ranking should be enough to help keep track on progress of all and numbers. When we did the Ainsdale Gathering.I took a leaf from Monks and posted some Tips on stuff like,,,,OWN THY HOVER,,,,,,LINE MANAGMENT,,,,,,.These Things ,the small but simple things and attention to detail.Help make stuff work well. BRIAN... Main thing is.This needs People to commit and take it seriously,but with a sence of fun,so all can get involved. BRIAN... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 <snip> Main thing is.This needs People to commit and take it seriously,but with a sence of fun,so all can get involved. BRIAN... Hi Brian, Absolutely agree on the 'Main thing...' Best wishes HNY Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Hello fellas,and Ladys,Merry Christmasto ya all.... BRIAN... I think the idea is becoming more and more clear. It has to be organized and there has to be goals or tests. It's not being elite anymore than the driver's test as Brian suggests. Bart Edited December 30, 2009 by bartman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think the idea is becoming more and more clear. It has to be organized and there has to be goals or tests. It's not being elite anymore than the driver'd test as Brian suggests. Bart Bart, Quite right. We need to know that the fliers know the rules of the road and will abide by them in their own interests. We might be able to avoid actual tests.... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) I say again, just in general to the masses, not in reply to anyone. Think of the BIG picture that full out organizing/requirements bring. You might be watching just your own kite in that mess, but think of the BIG PICTURE as to where this will lead down the road. Bart Edited December 30, 2009 by bartman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiteLife Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think at some point, it's going to be rather self-policing as well... A few dozen folks who worked hard to get where they are, able to fly on the squad, won't put up with folks who "don't quite have it yet". The trick is to lay out the knowledge and standards clearly enough that it's not a personal issue, and that everyone handles such situations tactfully, with regard. We had a couple of such occasions pop up during the Portsmouth and Bristol flies... In both cases, the corrective action could have been a bit more polite, and the way it was received could have been a bit more grown-up as well, hand in hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
temoniprince Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think this is a huge issue and it comes up alot! 1 you have some people who dont really know how to team fly but they dont want to be the loaner and stand out while everyone else who can do it so they jump right in. 2 There are other people who know they cant do it so they sit out and dont bother with it. 3 Then u have others who know they cant but there ego says WTF duh i can fly and watch me do team and wam bam tangle and they sit back and say that wasnt my fault. 4 and then there are the fliers who keep pushing people into mega flys to ge them started and all hell brakes losse and all the people who went in now have a ego boost and the next time they dont think twice if they can do it bc they said well i did it once so i am good enough. So clearly this is going to be super hard to go after and just have to pray it all goes well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think this is a huge issue and it comes up alot! 1 you have some people who dont really know how to team fly but they dont want to be the loaner and stand out while everyone else who can do it so they jump right in. 2 There are other people who know they cant do it so they sit out and dont bother with it. 3 Then u have others who know they cant but there ego says WTF duh i can fly and watch me do team and wam bam tangle and they sit back and say that wasnt my fault. 4 and then there are the fliers who keep pushing people into mega flys to ge them started and all hell brakes losse and all the people who went in now have a ego boost and the next time they dont think twice if they can do it bc they said well i did it once so i am good enough. So clearly this is going to be super hard to go after and just have to pray it all goes well. Hi Sammy, Back in my school/college days I was presented with a notion of a balance of process where apparently diametrically opposed notions had to be held in balance in order to proceed forward. I did not understand the practicalities then or even possibly now. However, as I have intimated elsewhere in this thread, somehow we have to motivate people who are apparently on opposite sides of a diametrically opposed divide and MAKE them move in a positive direction. I will leave it at that with the rider that 'we can succeed'... Best wishes Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andelscott Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I think this is a huge issue and it comes up alot! <snip> Ah, human nature and diversity - don't ya just love it? JB is right on the issues of 'personnel management' and 'expectation management'. The important issue is making sure there is a very clear (and communicated) vision of what the MegaTeam is all about. The roles and responsibilities of all participants must be clearly understood and accepted for everyone's sakes and sanity. There is but one shot (typically) due to the time to organise and get everyone up in the air. Audiences have a short attention span and festival time constraints can be crippling - even at the end of the day. But regular and ad-hoc fly-ins are a great boiler room for skills - Bri mentioned Ainsdale, then there is the NJ crew, and so forth. What better way of developing skills than flying with friends (and as many as you can find!), but without the added pressures of audiences and a "world record attempt"? Pity the sole flyer out in, say, Utah or Inverness-shire without a team within several hundred miles (hey, I'm just guessing and plucking a state and county out of the hat) - how can we reach out to them to inspire and encourage - and ultimately prepare them for successful assimilation into the collective? <Uh-oh! - think I've been watching too much Star Trek...> Perhaps we need more "distance learning" products - simple videos on how to form the grid - tricks and gotchas, like (hypothetically): "avoid having the ten foot tall, six foot wide guy (or girl) in the front"; "flyer furthest forward is bottom of the column"; "don't stand immediately behind the flyer in front, but slightly zig-zag"; "no snag handles are great, but try not to snag your lines on another flyer's ears or hat". I'm going to enjoy reading the fruits of this thread - whether or not I ever get to a MegaTeam event. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I say again, just in general to the masses, not in reply to anyone. Think of the BIG picture that full out organizing/requirements bring. You might be watching just your own kite in that mess, but think of the BIG PICTURE as to where this will lead down the road. Bart Bart, If everyone holds their kite still there is no problem at all. Indeed, I am planning presentations where the flying space is determined by the dimensions of the kite - no more. The flier will need to rotate the kite at 1 degree intervals on a precise count. The clock is ticking.... Felix OK <grins> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiteLife Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Felix, you're positively mad... Keep it coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Felix, you're positively mad... Keep it coming. Hey JB, I'm 'positive'. There are serious issues that we need to deal with. Everything I do is 'in context' with those issues in my own perception and capabilities. Lightness of touch may be appropriate on occasions... How lightly do you need to hold those lines? Nothing personal! Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted December 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2009 Ah, human nature and diversity - don't ya just love it? JB is right on the issues of 'personnel management' and 'expectation management'. The important issue is making sure there is a very clear (and communicated) vision of what the MegaTeam is all about. The roles and responsibilities of all participants must be clearly understood and accepted for everyone's sakes and sanity. There is but one shot (typically) due to the time to organise and get everyone up in the air. Audiences have a short attention span and festival time constraints can be crippling - even at the end of the day. But regular and ad-hoc fly-ins are a great boiler room for skills - Bri mentioned Ainsdale, then there is the NJ crew, and so forth. What better way of developing skills than flying with friends (and as many as you can find!), but without the added pressures of audiences and a "world record attempt"? Pity the sole flyer out in, say, Utah or Inverness-shire without a team within several hundred miles (hey, I'm just guessing and plucking a state and county out of the hat) - how can we reach out to them to inspire and encourage - and ultimately prepare them for successful assimilation into the collective? <Uh-oh! - think I've been watching too much Star Trek...> Perhaps we need more "distance learning" products - simple videos on how to form the grid - tricks and gotchas, like (hypothetically): "avoid having the ten foot tall, six foot wide guy (or girl) in the front"; "flyer furthest forward is bottom of the column"; "don't stand immediately behind the flyer in front, but slightly zig-zag"; "no snag handles are great, but try not to snag your lines on another flyer's ears or hat". I'm going to enjoy reading the fruits of this thread - whether or not I ever get to a MegaTeam event. Hey Andy, We are thinking in terms of addressing the issues that you are referring to. It looks like a practical proposal will be in place soon. Then I can get some sleep... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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