bartman Posted October 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Sailor. Thanks, that actually does help me to understand the dynamics of what is happening at the kite and nicely explains how overcontrol can cause it to rock. I don't know if I will ever get enough practice time in to train my mind to the level it needs to be though. Time will always be an issue for me. I'll be, hopefully, working on it again this weekend as the weather forecast looks okay. It is difficult for me to think of these things in the abstract. It goes against my nature of thinking through a problem. To quote a line for the Apollo 13 movie when the craft is out of control and Tom Hank's character asks, "why can't I think this through?" as he struggles with the controls. That is how it is for me too. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sailor99 Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 waffle!!!!! (wandering off hurumphing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 <snip>"why can't I think this through?" as he struggles with the controls. That is how it is for me too. Bart The wobbles 'are' the learning. The reflex actions rely on the feedback loop between eyes and hands. I would go so far as to say that flying a revolution smoothly in all orientations is a 'special case' of the wobbles! Keep at it, it is worth it... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiteLife Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Well said Felix. To me, the fine control is not so much a matter of controlling everything... Rather, it's like floating, compensating or enhancing what the kite wants to do naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Well said Felix. To me, the fine control is not so much a matter of controlling everything... Rather, it's like floating, compensating or enhancing what the kite wants to do naturally. So following on, if the kite is rocking from side to side, go with it and aim on facing left, then facing right and establishing a rhythm from one side to the other. I do not like the notion of practice but will happily spend a lot of time 'doing the piano scales', especially the wing tip turns, for the sheer aesthetic pleasure of hanging onto the rotation point; nailing it in the sky. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 I have watched the B-Series DVD a couple times again in the last week where John mentions the "steering wheel" and the minute control motions to keep the kite "floating". I find it very hard to pick up on that from watching and listening to the DVD though. That aside, I understand where you guys are going with this and if all goes according to plan I am going to have 8 hours between Saturday and Monday freed up to work on this so long as the weather will work with me as well! I will get a stable hover from the beast before Christmas! Now about the brake lines. I have the top lines to the end of the knots most times. I do have to move them in a bit now and again to deal with the ever changing wind. The bottom lines are also on the last knot so I am working with pretty good brake. I picked that up last year when I talked with iQuad members. I'm not 100% sure if I am noticing a difference from one knot to the next at this time. It may make more difference later. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david ellison Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 waffle!!!!!(wandering off hurumphing) no need to hurumph old chap. I enjoyed your flow chart description on overcoming the wobbles, just didn't understand a word It's fine to intellectualise the observation-response cycle but/and at some point "one has to transcend technique so that the art becomes an "artless art" growing out of the Unconscious" (quoted from aforementioned book - thoroughly recommended) Enjoy the fun of finding out Bartman. I remember Sailor saying recently that he wished he could start all over again with this Rev flying so that he could re-experience the fun of the early learning discoveries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sailor99 Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 I did indeed say that, and I meant it. Learning is a life-joy we only learn to enjoy later in life. Put another way, I envy you in your process Bart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 <snip>I will get a stable hover from the beast before Christmas! <snip> Bart Enjoy the journey Bart! As I said, it is worth it... Best wishes Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 And of course, I envy those of you who have already figured this all out! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyjuggles Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 Not sure i can add much to what has already been said but it sounds like you have all the skills to nail this - especially if you can back the kite up to 20+ft. I find the higher the kite goes in reverse the harder is to keep stable. Remember that the hover is *simply* a matter of balancing the kite between going up and coming down - if you can land it in a controlled way leading edge down you only need to add a bit more brake to make it hover. I practised hovering from the ground up but also practised slow dive-stops - using lots of brake as it descends till it reaches a hover. Try reversing up to 10ft and down to 5 ft then go back and forth between the two. The hover is a balance and, like balancing a broom on your finger, requires micro adjustment and muscle memory to achieve. In my experience, when you learn any balancing act (unicycle, stilts, handstand) you learn by balancing for seconds at first and gradually manage it for longer and longer. When i was learning i would back the kite up from the ground a couple of feet hold it for a few seconds and then turn it over fly it and then land again leading edge down (*repeat* 10000 times!) Finally, practice the hover as close to the ground as you can. It's much more natural closer to the ground and having a point of reference of the floor against the leading edge definitely helps. You're nearly there! Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 The main difference between a new flier and a practiced flier is that the wobbles are of a different size. JB 's wobbles are just a bit smaller, thats all. So the smaller the wobble, the less you see it. The wobble is still there though. Hope that makes sense?? Anyway, thats how I see it. with practice, all that happens is you learn to wobble less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KiteLife Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 Another pearl, nice one Baloo, I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 I don't believe I saw John "wobble" when he was here. Could have happened later that night depending on what he got into at the beer garden, but most of us would have missed that! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 You are looking in the wrong place to see JB's wobble. Look at the kite, it looks still as a rock. Look at his hands they are all over the place. Just like me actually. Except it is my hands that are still and the kite all over the place!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone in Shoe Bob Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 And of course, I envy those of you who have already figured this all out! You think any of us have figured it out? No, we are all looking for answers too, but hay if it was easy everyone would be doing it, and where’s the fun in that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 You are looking in the wrong place to see JB's wobble.Look at the kite, it looks still as a rock. Look at his hands they are all over the place. <snip> Very well put. <edit> I should also mention that some of the 'feedback' comes through the feel of the relative tension of the lines. In lighter breezes I find myself holding the handles with finger tips, the better to sense what is happening to the kite. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonesey Posted October 17, 2008 Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 Bart... I was thinking about you this afternoon when I was flying my 2~4 .... inverted take off's and hovers with that thing really exaggerate the wobbles... and I haven't flown it for a few weeks so there were definitely a few to be seen... anyway my phone rang (had my headphones on listening to music so no need to stop flying) and while I was talking away sorting out some typical Friday afternoon tech support question I noticed the kite was just sat there hovering inverted rock solid .... Doesn't always pay to over think it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2008 I know my moment of clarity came the first time while I was talking to the new guy beside me and listening to his questions and answering. Things were flying much better so I understand about over thinking it. That said, I do like to understand what it is I am trying to achieve and understand the required controls to do it. I understand better where the wobble is coming in now so that will help me to se through that... I hope. I've been listening to music now which I do find helps the flow. Maybe after this weekend I can post one of those "Eureka!" moments! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone in Shoe Bob Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Maybe after this weekend I can post one of those "Eureka!" moments! First the bad news, for me there was no "Eureka!" moment. Now the good news, from what you say it sounds like you have already had the big break through you think you still need. That realisation that you can hold your kite stable whilst concentrating on something else suggests that things have started to move into that “walking and chewing gum” part of the brain. Congratulations, I recon you are way further down the road than you are giving your self credit for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Oh, there better be a Eureka moment! It will be too anti-climactic otherwise. I appreciate your encouragement. Perhaps I am further along than I feel, just not a lot of first hand data to compare with. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone in Shoe Bob Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Oh, there better be a Eureka moment! It will be too anti-climactic otherwise. Well actually yes but not like the one you are looking for. You won’t go to bed a complete novice and wake up the next morning a Rev Guru. There are loads of little breakthroughs like the one you have just had when you were chatting then realised it seemed like the kite had apparently been flying it’s self, all these little breakthroughs add up almost without you noticing then one day, probably when you are least expecting it, they will all gang up and hit you square in the face and you just won’t know what hit you. It happened to me a while back and trust me it took three days for my mates to wipe the smile of my face. Stick with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS Kite Stakes Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi all - I had a morning yesterday with a eureka session. I could not understand the talk about changing the length of the pig tails (as far as I could see all that will do is change the angle of the handle). But then I moved my hands down the handle until it becomes almost impossible to fly forwards. Then I took the kite to about five degrees from inverted - and eureka, I can now fly inverted. The wobbles are gone, only the mind fails to tell the difference between clockwise and anti every now and again. By taking the hands down as far as possible I have reduced the movement of the bottom of the sail with each hand movement. Now I have to force the kite to go forward, and it wants to go backward. After getting this into my head (with large hammer ) I spent the rest of the morning throwing the kite around like a maniac. Loud music and good wind and BIG smile. Today we have rain and no wind, and I'm scared that yesterdays lesson did not stick.Hopeing for better winds tomorrow - never mind the rain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted November 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Hi all - I had a morning yesterday with a eureka session. I could not understand the talk about changing the length of the pig tails (as far as I could see all that will do is change the angle of the handle). But then I moved my hands down the handle until it becomes almost impossible to fly forwards. Then I took the kite to about five degrees from inverted - and eureka, I can now fly inverted. The wobbles are gone, only the mind fails to tell the difference between clockwise and anti every now and again.By taking the hands down as far as possible I have reduced the movement of the bottom of the sail with each hand movement. Now I have to force the kite to go forward, and it wants to go backward. After getting this into my head (with large hammer ) I spent the rest of the morning throwing the kite around like a maniac. Loud music and good wind and BIG smile. Today we have rain and no wind, and I'm scared that yesterdays lesson did not stick.Hopeing for better winds tomorrow - never mind the rain. Cool. Congrats. I'm going out over lunch. Looks like it will be a nice wind by then and nice temperature. It's been pretty much two weeks since the weather has been decent so hopefully it has all sunk in and works out good for me. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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