B series handle tuning

[streamhawk]

I'm flying the B standard, looking to get the vent later on. I understand the basic of handle tuning, closer to the handle on top more lift, father out more reverse and brake. I notice on the DVD John mentions a general setting of fourth knot from the end on the top and last knot out on the bottom. But from reading through the posts, it sounds like a preference for the top is third knot from the end and close to the handle knot for the bottom. So....two questions, what is the general preference for handle setup you all have on the B, and the second, I'm looking for a loose thumbnail guide for handle setup, depending on wind or other variables. I do know personal preference probably is the rule, but until I have that experience, a loose guide would be very beneficial to a beginner, thanks.

Bill

[KiteLife]

When the LE is pointed up, in theory, it's leaning towards you (unless you're flying top to bottom in reverse)... You'll sometimes need to draw or step back while flying upwards, in order to generate drive and overcome gravity.

When the LE is pointed down, in theory, it's leaning away from you (unless you're in a full tilt nose dive)... When you step in, with a little applied brake, it should sail away from you and allow ground gaining.

By "LE up or down" I'm simply referring to it being pointed at the ground (invert), or the top of your wind window (upright).

Not sure if that helps or not.

[streamhawk]

ok, let me see if I got this. With more brake on in the tuning, you keep your momentum up by stepping or moving your arms forward or backward to keep things as they would be with less brake? Don't mean to be dense, I've had about four whole flights so far, but have flown dual lines alot, just trying to grasp the theory here, I like it from what I understand so far.

Bill

[KiteLife]

Check out this thread...

http://www.revkites.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1113

Sure, I'm really animated when I fly, but comparing to the info I outlined above, you should be able to gain a concept of what I'm describing.

Remember, I'm drawing back whenever I need power to rise or hold a hover in lighter wind... I step in when the kite hits "gliding" position, with the LE pointed down.

The faster draws are to elicit fast clockwork, etc... Things that require compressed power and rotation, without the kite actually traveling any great distance.

You can also see some of it, applied more smoothly, here...

http://www.revkites.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1203 (granted, it's through a stake, but the philosophy still applies)

You won't really connect with the technique until you've spent enough time actually doing it, experimenting and adjusting your body work.

Again, I move around a lot, more than is required to fly... But it's all to an end, eliciting that last drop of performance and drive.

[streamhawk]

thanks John, I think I absorbed some of it, I see lots of pumping on the way back, and making up ground moving forward. I'll experiment and get back with you. You certainly aren't a paperweight there, ever think about using roller skates?

Bill

[KiteLife]

LOL, then I couldn't get up on my tippy-toes. <grin>

[streamhawk]

I'm sure we could rig up springs in those skates so you could fly up in the air, much more dramatic than tippy toes.

I could tell there had been a change in techniques from watching the B series DVD as compared to the original instructional video, even simple turns look really different now, not to mention everything else that's obviously progressed. Good stuff!

Bill

[KiteLife]

With luck, we'll be introducing an official JB/Rev advancing flying DVD sometime in 2009.

News will hit this forum first...

Lots of filming and editing to in the meantime, using picture in picture really slows things down on the production end, but will be worthwhile.

[cerfvoliste]

Nice, what a difference 2 inches made. I tied the new knots on the lower pigtail and went out flying this afternoon. I am clipping and melting right now

Rx

[KiteLife]

Pros, cons?

[cerfvoliste]

Pros, cons?

It really lightend up the touch and smoothed things out.

Only con I noticed was the kite was a little more floaty, requiring a little more body movement... but not sure that is a bad thing,

Rx

[KiteLife]

Right on.

[Lauranyyfan]

Hey John...

Today, I was flying a SUL in VERY low winds. There was a little slack in the bottom lines, LE up. It seemed if there wasn't that slack, I'd stall it right away. Is this right or were my adjustments off?

[KiteLife]

It's a matter of tensioning, that drive I talk so much about...

Until you learn to load the sail when you want, the slack will make it easier.

For me, using the techniques I've developed, the slack actually reduces my lift.

FYI, the techniques I use do not require a lot of footwork, but I do use a fair amount of arm motion.

[sailor99]

For me, using the techniques I've developed, the slack actually reduces my lift.

Any chance of elaborating a bit?

[KiteLife]

Think sailing, and "sheeting".

The slack makes for a loose (trailing) edge, and ultimately, pressure lost from the sail.

[sailor99]

The analogy works for me!

Taking it a step further, pumping or in this case giving the lines a tug gives a momentary burst of power as Felix was explaining.

It would be great to run through this in the clinic if there is time. There is a good chance there will be light winds!

[Jonesey]

Think sailing, and "sheeting".

The slack makes for a loose (trailing) edge, and ultimately, pressure lost from the sail.

John.... if I may be so bold as we are taking the sailing analogy... the other thing about that is of course that a 'sail' that is oversheeted can be less efficient and generate less lift then one undersheeted so in rev terms the trick is getting the amount of sheet/break tension right to generate lift without stalling and this is far more evident in light 'marginal' flying weather...

If you ever get the chance to watch Olympic widsurfers 'flapping' around the course in very light or no breeze the process of 'pumping' the sail to generate lift/drive is deceptively difficult to get right ...

I was playing with my 2~4 in very light airs the other night and the thing that was obvious was that as soon as you could generate airflow over the 'wing' lift was generated and as the kite accelarated it created more lift etc etc ... pretty soon you are charging around the sky it what appears to be no breeze (someone actually came up and asked me what was keeping the kite in the air!) ... of course then you learn pretty quickly that if you dont have the handle tuning just right, a feel for how 'greedy' to be on sheet tension and to maintain lift/speed through turns, the whole thing unravels and the kite stalls, slows down, lift dissapears and a severe bought of 'ground rush' begins ..... of course if your quick and have enough altitude you can use gravity to your advantage to generate speed/lift and off you go again.. great fun!

For me the biggest difference has been that the more I concentrate on getting the movement and 'sheet' tension (with the help of handle tuning) thing right the less I am having to walk around ... needless to say my wife see's that as a backward step if you'll pardon the pun

[KiteLife]

Great break down.

The other thing to take into account is the curvature of the leading edge and sail when it's properly loaded.

Pumping the kite or pulling back on it (with the right handle positioning) increases the curve, and lets the trailing edge out more (hence the extra brake in higher winds).

[Choccy]

Taking it a step further, pumping or in this case giving the lines a tug gives a momentary burst of power as Felix was explaining.

Am I missing something here, isn't this the very first principle we learn when launching a kite for the first time ?

So nothing new ? :confused!:

[sailor99]

You are right, not new. However it is easy to forget you can use it to initiate a sharp turn, or climb, or whatever. Also the opposite of moving forward to help stop a movement (although I could have phrased that better)

[Choccy]

Phew, that is a relief, not more new stuff to learn

It *is* so easy to forget things when we are not challenged by different conditions.

[KiteLife]

Nah, you explained it quite well Sailor.

[Felix]

You are right, not new. However it is easy to forget you can use it to initiate a sharp turn, or climb, or whatever. Also the opposite of moving forward to help stop a movement (although I could have phrased that better)

The point I was making was that 'hand position' at the beginning and end of transition may be 'critical' and that the hand movement may be all that is required to execute the transition.

A quick forward movement can reduce the effective wind speed and 'stall' the kite's movement without the risk of over 'correction' that might occur using the 'brake' lines. Keeping the sail effectively 'fully inflated' in this situation allows for further rapid transitions! (Sorry, I am going to have to add another <grin> at this stage as I remember learning how to fly a single line fighter kite)

Felix

[melnsct]

John, Isn't it VERY early in the morning where you are? Get some sleep!!!!

Melanie

[Jonesey]

John, Isn't it VERY early in the morning where you are? Get some sleep!!!!

Melanie

Melanie ... your on a thread with Sailor, Choccy and me and you went Off Topic before us... Wow didnt see that ever happening!

But your right .. whats up John are you using Sailors alarm clock?? (if you watch his posts they are nearly always at 5am or there abouts)

John/Felix ... I know from my sailing days that light air sailing more then anything is about 'feel' and I know for some people it is just something you cant teach ... do you think its the same with this type of skill/technique?

Seems to me its like a lot of sports (sailing, driving etc etc) the top guys always seem to have 'soft hands' or a light touch and respond to the feedback they get through the controls ... while us newbies are gripping the handles like our lives depend on it