UK Zen feedback

[david ellison]

Last September The Decorators were invited to fly at a festival in Berlin. It was a great festival and weekend apart from one minor detail - there was no wind! We can all exaggerate when it comes to the wind - describing it as too much or not enough and using it as the excuse for a less than stellar fly. Well I know I can! But Berlin was different, there really was no wind. Only those with Thomas Horvath's superb "synergistic" single line gliding kites were in their element. I left feeling that we hadn't really been able to contribute as much as we could have.

The Decs low wind kite has always been the Rev One. Felix's preferred set up is a 4 wrap centre spar and 3 wrap in the rest of the frame. It's a good combination and gives the sail sufficient weight to keep moving in light airs above a minimum of c.2mph. Below that though, I find it drops from the sky all too readily and tends to leave Felix as the only flier still flying.

Anyway the point of all this is that I've just come back from my first 20 minutes with my brand spanking new Zen - in the very manly pink and purple fade layout. The weather was pretty average for February in the UK - cold and damp! The wind was...well, according to the smoke rising vertically from the chimneys as I walked up from my house to the village cricket (correction: village kite) field...there was no wind. Even the tall tree I usually use as my "is there enough to fly" guide wasn't having any of it. I even set the (100 ft) lines out 180 degrees in the wrong direction before realising that what wind there was was coming from the east not the west.

So how did the kite go? It went...and very well indeed. When I got sorted and pointing the right way it was gusting a mighty 1 mph'ish. The Zen seemed happy to play and I started out with some horizontal passes and centre window squares to get a feel for the feedback from the kite. I liked the way that the sail seemed to want to be worked. A 90 degree square corner felt best achieved in almost a dual line way - snap the inputs to stall and turn and then pull back to drive away. I guess this probably reflects the JB/iQuad flying style. It is very light compared to the Rev One setup that I'm more used to and will take some time to feel comfortable with. But the simple fact that it was flying positively in such a low "breeze" was a very positive sign.

At one point a mighty gust (!) of 3mph or so came through and the kite really started to pick up. Snap turns were easy, and noisy as the new icarex reacted to the frame bending and releasing with the inputs. The leading edge curves quickly as the wind rises and made me wonder how low the practical maximum wind speed will be for this kite. It will be interesting to fly it more and get a feel for how the flight characteristics change as the wind increases. Quick turns also started to get away from me as the tendency to want to oversteer kicked in. No doubt time in the air will help to find the right balance and inputs. I suppose I was approaching it from the perspective of how a Rev One reacts and the Zen is very different. Reversing had a very different feel to it as well and will need time to feel right.

So after only a short fly my conclusions are I'm happy that I went ahead and bought the Zen without having seen or flown one. I'll also be suggesting that the team thinks about taking them to Berlin if we go again.

Congratulations to the design team and to Bazzer's quality kite making skills.

[Felix]

<snip>

David,

You have an important e-mail to attend to. Please respond asap. Thanks for your Zen reflection. Blackheath Sunday on Metcheck is suggesting 0mph in the middle of the day. Sounds ideal. See you there <grins>

Felix

[big bri]

Thanks David for the insite,

If it wasnt our AGM on Sunday.I would make the trip over and have a nosey down to Blackheath.

Im bursting to try one of these dam kites.

Thanks again

BRIAN...

[Aerochic]

"So how did the kite go? It went...and very well indeed. When I got sorted and pointing the right way"

OMG, I didn't even think of that as a possible issue!

[Felix]

"So how did the kite go? It went...and very well indeed. When I got sorted and pointing the right way"

OMG, I didn't even think of that as a possible issue!

Taking off against the c1mph air movement is just that much more difficult but not actually impossible. Just requires more speed to achieve an 'effective' wind speed...

Felix

[Felix]

Thanks David for the insite,

If it wasnt our AGM on Sunday.I would make the trip over and have a nosey down to Blackheath.

Im bursting to try one of these dam kites.

Thanks again

BRIAN...

Given the latest forecast wind speed it would not be worth travelling.

Felix

[david ellison]

I've been reflecting on the maiden flight yesterday - particularly how quickly the leading edge took on a banana curve in even small increases in wind. i've always meddled with my Revs and I think I'll probably play with different variations in order to control the amount of bend. Now where's my bag of Rev One spars......? Has anyone else been trying out different combo's?

[Felix]

I've been reflecting on the maiden flight yesterday - particularly how quickly the leading edge took on a banana curve in even small increases in wind. i've always meddled with my Revs and I think I'll probably play with different variations in order to control the amount of bend. Now where's my bag of Rev One spars......? Has anyone else been trying out different combo's?

With the fighter kites the bowing of the lateral (cross) spar gives deeper billow and helps in directional stability given the deeper keel.

Overpowering a Rev1 or a Rev1.5 seems to result in a lack of directional stability. I wonder if this is because the vertical spars are not parallel if the leading edge takes on a 'curved configuration'.

Felix

[andelscott]

Overpowering a Rev1 or a Rev1.5 seems to result in a lack of directional stability. I wonder if this is because the vertical spars are not parallel if the leading edge takes on a 'curved configuration'.

Would this not argue in favour of the 'fat boy' SLE? Yet (from memory) I don't remember my 1.5 SLE performing any better when over-powered - or maybe my priority was to dump power at the edge of the window rather than fly accurately at the time...

[Felix]

Would this not argue in favour of the 'fat boy' SLE? Yet (from memory) I don't remember my 1.5 SLE performing any better when over-powered - or maybe my priority was to dump power at the edge of the window rather than fly accurately at the time...

The stiff Leading Edge would prevent the billow forming! I'm thinking that the stiffer centre spar that we have used for the REV1 3,4,3 wrap may help. Wondering if Rev1 Race,3,Race might work?

Felix

[david ellison]

It will be fun to play with swapping out spars, but before we go too far talking about changing round the frame to different combinations, let me just clarify that this is just finessing the "feel" to suit personal likes and habits built up over the years. The brief first fly already convinced me that the standard Zen frame is superb in the lightest of airs and opens up the extreme low end of the wind range.

[Felix]

It will be fun to play with swapping out spars, but before we go too far talking about changing round the frame to different combinations, let me just clarify that this is just finessing the "feel" to suit personal likes and habits built up over the years. The brief first fly already convinced me that the standard Zen frame is superb in the lightest of airs and opens up the extreme low end of the wind range.

I'm certainly looking forward to flying the factory version. <grins> Doesn't look like it will happen this weekend now...

Felix

[KiteLife]

As David expressed above, the Zen spars are superb for the bottom wind range, makes "flat footed" flying in 0-2 FAR easier for the average skilled flier as the Zen rods allow the kite to flex and cup wind real nicely... Definitely the right first frame to get with the kite, gives as much lift as possible in the very lightest of winds.

As a "performance upgrade", I've been using Race rods in my outer leading edge and verticals with 2-wrap center (all Rev I spars)... For my more animated, snappy and dynamic style, this combination has worked really well for me... Same spars I used in the "Zen Play" video.

[Felix]

As David expressed above, the Zen spars are superb for the bottom wind range, makes "flat footed" flying in 0-2 FAR easier for the average skilled flier as the Zen rods allow the kite to flex and cup wind real nicely... Definitely the right first frame to get with the kite, gives as much lift as possible in the very lightest of winds.

As a "performance upgrade", I've been using Race rods in my outer leading edge and verticals with 2-wrap center (all Rev I spars)... For my more animated, snappy and dynamic style, this combination has worked really well for me... Same spars I used in the "Zen Play" video.

Interesting that you may be referring to a more flexible centre spar here.

I think that I can understand the possible advantage <grins>

Felix

[beach]

My view as in all things with this kite and the flying is that everyone will have there own style that fits them and what works for you may not be best for me. With

that being said the "Zen" rods were just a starting point and where people take it from there is up to the flyer. Me and John have been round and round on the

placement of the brake line and only in the last year have I flown with much more brake than I used too, not as much as Steve and John but pretty tight.....

As for rods for the "Zen" I think people will just have to figure out what works best for them, me I love the original "Zen" rods but I do experiment with other

set ups all the time depending on what I want the kite to do, right or wrong no there is no such creature as far as I'm concerned...... Just my two cents but

hey I always have to put my spin on things....... Also before it's asked me and Steve had "Zen" rods in the footage shot for the "Zen" demo's and

the B-Pro also had "Zen" rods in it...... My final word is John we will never agree on the small things but in the big ones, awww heck we'll never agree there

either , but with that said your one of the best pilots I've ever had the honor of flying next too and one of my best friends....... (by the

way I still teach better than you) Ben

[Felix]

My view as in all things with this kite and the flying is that everyone will have there own style that fits them and what works for you may not be best for me. With

that being said the "Zen" rods were just a starting point and where people take it from there is up to the flyer. <snip>

Hi Ben,

Thanks for the insight. My take is that I am really interested in the relationship between the bamboo sparred single line fighter kites (which is where I started 20+ years ago) and the development of the four line kite. The crossover of practical aerodynamics and the relative properties of bamboo and the carbon rods is quite exciting.

Felix

[KiteLife]

Right as rain, all comes down to personal taste... Neat thing about having so many options with Revs.

[bazzeb]

As a fairly new rev flier I find I struggle flying in low wind - eveyone who was up north will confirm this (i was on short lines and struggling when others were on 120s and up in the air)

so I bought a zen as David said without trying before buying

it arrived the morning of the rev weekend up north so didint get an airing,I was on the flying field when it arrived in Nottingham

as it turned out the sunday at the get together would have been a great opportunity to try it out but it wasnt to be

Anyway today the wind was very light and changeable direction wise,so out i went

when i set up it was showing anything from nothing to 3 1/2 mph on my windometer (it was only a cheap one so read what you will about the speed)

I found i was able to fly - nothing fancy at first as the wind was very light,I was "shall we say" keeping it in the air

I was on 90lb 80ft lines and "flying" i would say,in wind or very little wind to me that i dont think even on short lines i would be able to fly in with a 1.5

The wind then picked up a little,I could feel it on my ears,checked it with the winometer and showing 2 1/2 to 5mph - at this speed I found I could dive stop and do inverted slides

more or less I would say the kite was powered up enough for a terrible low wind flier like myself

Am I happy,YES

Am I glad I bought one,YES

Is it the answer to my dreams of flying in zero to 2mph - time will tell as my experience grows

Heres a thought,I would like to see a more experienced pilot fly my kite - If I was "grounded"with short lines and the more experienced pilots were in the air on 120s with a 1.5

what can the more experienced pilots (Like David Ellison etc) do in the extreme low wind range

I feel I was flying in wind that I would not normally have flown in so that is a big plus for me

Do i need more practice,YES indeed

I hope some of this is of use,it would have been nice to have a constant low wind reading on the windometer,but when in England do we get that !!

Heres a pic of my Zen

and by the way Bazzer the kite is very well made as usual

Edited February 20, 2010 by BAZ

[KiteLife]

Great colors BAZ.

[big bri]

Great colors BAZ.

We flew yetserday with sedgwicks[rev 1s] for most of the morning.The wind was a beech wind,but blew ZIP,ZERO,through to 3mph at best.

Three pilots.All with same kite,BUT

I was perhaps the most experienced and had Race Frame.The other lads had Ul rods.One hates the sedgwick.The other Loves it.I ADORE mine

The point

Kev who hated the sedgwick[noted Hated].After two hours of sold HARD WORK,flying,gaining ground,keeping tension and basically learning how to fly in low wind with the kite.Left with a proper BDG,

Myself and Kev swopped kites.He said he couldnt maintain a hover or fall with the conrol and at the pace i was setting with my KITE[which was painfully slow he was to fast]].I didnt for a moment think it was the kite,but the pilots experience at work.We swopped and Kev handled the moves and control much,much better.BUT,i still set the pace exactly the same,with the same control,but with his kite that couldnt doit earlier.I hadnt changed a thing.

Take what you will from that.I hope its the word EXPERIENCE.Kevs a top pilot btw.

For me its simple.The ZEN has tobe some kite to BETTER the Sedgwick.For me ,low wind flying is what usually sorts the wheat from the chaff or the experienced good pilots from the real gifted,dedicated pilots.After flying the sedgwick yesterday and having a ball with it.I have to ask.What does the ZEN then give me.That the sedgwick doesnt .

Well,i beleive from what ive read.Thers isnt a bucket full of diffrence that all will notice.Infact.I beleive most wont get it because they just dont yet get or have the experience [yet]required and thats wher the ZEN sits for me.It kicks on from the Sedgwick in experienced hands and helps less experienced pilots find a real ZEN MOMENT.I cant now wait ti fly one,because low wind flying is way kewl when you get it.The ZEN for me will just give that little extra in its design and development.that will make the diffrence.

Just my 2penth

BRIAN...

[Felix]

<snip>

ZEN MOMENT

<snip>

BRIAN...

David Ellison did get to take his kite out of the bag today... twice in fact, that I saw <grins>

Needless to say it went straight back in the bag.

Experience counts for quite a lot Brian. Difficult to quantify, without a doubt!

Felix

[REVflyer]

Could tiger woods beat you with a borrowed set of golf clubs? I'm betting YES!

How much is pilot's skill and how much is the kite all by itself

(I'd guess-timate 75 or 80% is the pilot skill, the rest is the flying conditions and the kite itself.)

Keep practicing in zero and turbulent winds, your skills will grow exponentially.

I had to learn all over again after moving to DC metro area from Ft. Lauderdale, (before that I lived in Chicago). Zero wind is now my home-court advantage! I pride myself on being able to do anything possible with a REV in a dead calm. I have probably a dozen kites for no wind or SUL conditions. It would be foolish not to, that's the normal set of circumstances in this locale.

How different is the original 1point5 model compared to the B-Series Pro?

Well thats how far the Zen is from a stock sail Rev1,...

sedgewick's panel layout and graphics aren't even close to the changes incorporated into their latest model!

[big bri]

I cant wait to fly one Paul,.

Have to say also.We did a great exercise yesterday in again very low winds[1-3mph]on the beech.

Im gona post it on the Gonzales printed 1.5s thread though....i found it intresting what i found

BRIAN...