bartman Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Well thank you again. I am trying to think if I've reversed the Xtra yet and really paid attention. I know the bicycle spins I did with it were very good with little or no wandering. I've been using as much brake as I can and still move forward. I've found that all that brake has really helped me with over control issues because even applying just a little bit more brake would be too much so I've been training myself to use the smallest of movements as a result. Need to try the two finger rule next time I'm out and see where it wants to go. Watching the middle of the kite and not the "wings" really is the way to go especially when learning it. It is amazing how that simple focus can make a world of difference almost instantely. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Foster Posted July 21, 2011 Report Share Posted July 21, 2011 I was about to post about using a vented kite, but Bazzer beat me to it. Vented Revs fly so very well in reverse, sideways also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lylenc Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Cartwheels were done on the 3-wrap Barresi 1.5, vented 1.5 with SLE, 1.5 SLE, and Rev 2 today for comparison of performance. Wind was mostly one direction ranging 10 to 20 mph, with average about 17 and a few gusts to 26. Previously I had compared the Rev 2 and vented Rev 2 in 30 mph wind. I usually use 85' lines, but used 120' lines today. For my flying preference at least, it was easiest to do cartwheels in the following order of kites: Vented Rev 2, Rev 2, Vented 1.5, 1.5 SLE, and Barresi 1.5. Part of my problem with the B 1.5 may be that it is slower than I'm used to flying. It took me a half hour last week to slow down the inputs and stop making bow ties on the B 1.5, after flying mostly vented Rev 2 in 30+ mph for a week prior to that. Even after trying to make a fair comparison, it seemed like the stiffer leading edge on the 1.5 size kite made cartwheels easier to control. Full disclosure, I'd pick a Rev 2 size over the 1.5 size in almost any situation anyway. If you are having troubles learning cartwheels with 3-wrap leading edge on a 1.5, try a SLE. It might make a difference for you (a Rev 2 might be easier too). The SLE frame for the 1.5 size seemed easier for me in the 10 - 20 mph wind range. I have no idea if I'd have the same prefences in 5 - 10 mph wind. The stiffer leading edge also made reverse flight seem easier, as additonal comment to the prior post. I didn't realize I was going to do a comparison when flying the B 1.5, so I didn't try using both the 2-wrap and 3-wrap together to see how that compares to the SLE. Someone else may have a comment on that comparison. The wind was mostly at the lower end before I switched from the B 1.5 to the vented 1.5. In general, as with any kite adjustments, there are trade-offs for changes to frame. With the mega-fly craze of the last several years, it seems the positive characteristics of the SLE have been forgotten or ignored. Or, it could be me being an old fart and thinking the old way is better. I had mostly left the 1.5 SLE in the bag for the last couple of years and used the other Revs. Glad I pulled it out today. It is a sweet kite and probably gets overlooked by many others, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 <snip> If you can hold a side ways hover on two middle fingers(ie not have the kite running forward) Your brake setting is correct. that is a good general rule for set up each time you fly. To much forward on the kite will mean larger wrist rotations which lead to bigger mistakes and over corrections. <snip> Ah, Bazzer you just reminded me - I changed my brake setting a week ago. I rarely blame the gear for tricking problems - I'm usually blaming technique, but in this case my brake setting was lacking! I previously had so much brake dialed in on my leaders that I was having a bear of a time holding an upright hover. So a week ago, I dialed it back a couple notches until I could come up with a solution. Well, after looking through some videos yesterday, this vid provided me with the solution: Street Kiting in Portland (check 4:10 to 4:17) When I look at this section of the vid, I can see that Watty's is pulling his arms in for acceleration, so that he can see the tops of his hands. This allows for a great deal of acceleration, with just the arms, while also giving the option of rocking the wrists back as well, for even more acceleration. I was already positioning my hands like this when I launch, it didn't occur to me that I could use this same hand positioning to maintain a good upright hover, till I saw the vid! Ok, back to the cartwheel - Now that I had a good way to maintain a good upright hover with lots of brake dialed in, I um, dialed back in lots of brake (Ahhhhh.... I missed this setting last knot on the stock B handles). I got through 3 rotations of the cartwheel right away! Removing some (lots) of the acceleration helps slow the forward motion down (of course) and helps make the transitions less twitchy. Because the transitions are less twitchy, I can keep more tension on all the lines at all times through the rotations and transitions! Also, I believe I had the timing of the transition wrong. If traveling left to right, with a clockwise spin, I previously stated I was having success starting the transition with the LE somewhere between the " \ " and " | " position. Today, I was noticing the transition worked better when I started it somewhere between the " | " and " / " position. As always, I'll report back tomorrow if I can't make it work again. Thanks for jogging my brain Bazzer, and thanks for the vid Watty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Ah, Bazzer you just reminded me - I changed my brake setting a week ago. <snip> The best place for all this is where the kite is neutral. Not going forwards, backwards, left or right. In order to make it travel the flier has to effect some positive input rather than attempting to reverse any tendency. So, here we are with the kite in the middle of the wind window 'in neutral'. It will not go forwards, backwards, left or right without positive input from the flier. In a strong breeze relaxed shoulders and just hanging on the handles will be just right. The kite will not fly forwards... At this point the slightest input from the flier will have sufficient affect on the sail and will result in 'controlled' moves. In light winds the same process applies but the flier will have to create the effective sail loading. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katrina Posted July 22, 2011 Report Share Posted July 22, 2011 Decided to learn cartwheels next time I was out, which was last weekend. Here is what worked really well for me, may work for others: Don't look at the kite at all. Look 2 or 3 kite lengths ahead or behind it. Why? Because your hands probably already know what to do, and if you aren't looking at each move you make and overthinking it, your hands will just do the right thing. Remember in Star Wars when Luke is failing to swat at the little floating bot with his saber, and obi wan makes him do it blind folded instead? And he does much better. Use the force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Decided to learn cartwheels next time I was out, which was last weekend. Here is what worked really well for me, may work for others: Don't look at the kite at all. Look 2 or 3 kite lengths ahead or behind it. Why? Because your hands probably already know what to do, and if you aren't looking at each move you make and overthinking it, your hands will just do the right thing. <snip> Having confidence in what your hands 'do know' is important. I had thought about posting about looking at one place and flying at another earlier. Peripheral vision is a bit of a challenge to those of us who have not been involved in team calling. I think that we should all take some time to be able to spread/split our attention. <grins> Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 I am so close to getting this. Sometimes it comes almost perfect. The next time won't work. I still have not figured out what I am doing when it work vs. not works. Looking behind the kite worked only once for me! By the end of WSIKF I am determined to have this roughed out! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 I am so close to getting this. Sometimes it comes almost perfect. The next time won't work. I still have not figured out what I am doing when it work vs. not works. Looking behind the kite worked only once for me! By the end of WSIKF I am determined to have this roughed out! Bart Don't think too hard about it. Just let your hand move naturally. Now if you want to think about, as you do it, you should try doing it in slow-motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Don't think too hard about it. Just let your hand move naturally. Now if you want to think about, as you do it, you should try doing it in slow-motion. No No No, You should be saying Very Slow Motion. You should be stopping and holding 360 points per rotation... Nothing Less is good enough. Wobbles are simply not allowed. Do it or fail... Of course there are some people out there who have modified their kites/bridles etc. so that they claim that they can do all this stuff without fail every time and in all wind conditions... They will, of course, be happy to show you how to achieve their exemplary capabilities at a festival near you any time soon now... NOT... Back in the real world we stick to our Piano scales and enjoy the drill... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 No No No, You should be saying Very Slow Motion. You should be stopping and holding 360 points per rotation... Nothing Less is good enough. Wobbles are simply not allowed. Do it or fail... Of course there are some people out there who have modified their kites/bridles etc. so that they claim that they can do all this stuff without fail every time and in all wind conditions... They will, of course, be happy to show you how to achieve their exemplary capabilities at a festival near you any time soon now... NOT... Back in the real world we stick to our Piano scales and enjoy the drill... Felix Errr, "Yes SIR!" Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Hello Bart, I have a decent cartwheel going on now. Maybe these tips will help you: I think the reason its so important to have your handles tuned to a "neutral" position is so that during the transitions, you don't have to try and control the forward/reverse aspect as much. I will refrain from saying which knots on the leaders I'm using, (from here on out), because so many things affect this setting, save to say that my setup is now "neutral", and not having to manipulate my wrists as much during the transitions is working out for me. I've found it beneficial to practice doing little "rainbows" right to left to right etc. as demonstrated in a vid Madquad posted (check 1:47 to 1:54): During this part, while flying inverted, Andy taps the LE tips right to left to right etc, making little, slow arcs. I practice doing this inverted, as in the vid, a whole bunch of times, and also practice doing this with the kite upright a whole bunch of times. Don't let the Rev transition at first, just practice this until the arcs looks smooth inverted and upright, separately. By the end of WSIKF I hope to hear some pointers from you! My cartwheels could still use lots of improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 No No No, You should be saying Very Slow Motion. You should be stopping and holding 360 points per rotation... Nothing Less is good enough. Wobbles are simply not allowed. Do it or fail... Of course there are some people out there who have modified their kites/bridles etc. so that they claim that they can do all this stuff without fail every time and in all wind conditions... They will, of course, be happy to show you how to achieve their exemplary capabilities at a festival near you any time soon now... NOT... Back in the real world we stick to our Piano scales and enjoy the drill... Felix My mentor has spoken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 Errr, "Yes SIR!" Bart Hi Bart, Thanks for paying attention... no need for the honorific though! JB has mentioned the full sail many times. We need that in the middle of the wind window with the kite neutral, as in not going off in any direction. I'm advocating hands down at thigh level with handles horizontal and an active stance. I'm waiting to hear of alternative suggestions to this position. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted August 7, 2011 Report Share Posted August 7, 2011 My mentor has spoken. Hi John, Thanks for the encouragement <grins> Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Okay, so went out tonight and tried the idea of these little arcs from tip to tip inverted and upright. I think this will be the way I learn it. I did them as slow as I could which was tough. Very little wind down low tonight so I had to back up quite a bit while doing it and I did tend to snag the end tips in the grass at times in the process. The pattern was there most of the time. I would got left then right as many times as I could before running into problems and needing to reset. It was more recognizable with touching the ground than trying to do it higher up where there was more air movement. It's on it's way for sure! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portlandflyer Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 Okay, so went out tonight and tried the idea of these little arcs from to to top inverted and upright. I think this will be the way I learn it. I did them as slow as I could which was tough. Very little wind down low tonight so I had to back up quite a bit while doing it and I did tend to snag the end tips in the grass at times in the process. The pattern was there most of the time. I would got left then right as many times as I could before running into problems and needing to reset. It was more recognizable with touching the ground than trying to do it higher up where there was more air movement. It's on it's way for sure! Bart I gotta get you to show me at WSIKF!!! Got to be a simpler way than what I'm (not) doing!!!! Maybe the rainbows will work, I'll try it next time out!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khalathur Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 I finally got out to practice this some on Friday and I noticed something that surprised me. I seemed to make progress a lot faster on the moonwalk than on the cartwheel. For some reason counter-rotating while traveling was just a much more natural motion for me, in either direction. Anybody else experience this? I think it might come down to the fact that for the cartwheel to look right, the rotation speed and travel speed must match up, so the kite appears to roll along without "slipping". For the moonwalk, it's all slip. As long as the rotation speed is constant then it looks pretty good regardless of the travel speed. Now I've got to try these slow tip-to-tip arcs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 I had the same experience Khal! The first time I tried a cartwheel I actually tried a moonwalk (and didn't know it). I found the first rotation of a moonwalk far easier to do than the first rotation of a cartwheel, especially if I'm traveling right to left. I've been thinking about this trick's name (bicycle/cartwheel). Maybe it needs to become 2 completely separate tricks - Bicycle, where you are traveling horizontally, in the air, while spinning in the direction you are traveling; the spin speed can be variable. Cartwheel, where you are traveling horizontally, while spinning in the direction you are traveling, touch the LE tips to the ground with every 180 degrees of rotation; spin speed should match travel speed. Then there is the Moonwalk, where you travel horizontally, in the air, while spinning in the opposite direction of travel; spin speed can be variable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portlandflyer Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 I had the same experience Khal! The first time I tried a cartwheel I actually tried a moonwalk (and didn't know it). I found the first rotation of a moonwalk far easier to do than the first rotation of a cartwheel, especially if I'm traveling right to left. I've been thinking about this trick's name (bicycle/cartwheel). Maybe it needs to become 2 completely separate tricks - Bicycle, where you are traveling horizontally, in the air, while spinning in the direction you are traveling; the spin speed can be variable. Cartwheel, where you are traveling horizontally, while spinning in the direction you are traveling, touch the LE tips to the ground with every 180 degrees of rotation; spin speed should match travel speed. Then there is the Moonwalk, where you travel horizontally, in the air, while spinning in the opposite direction of travel; spin speed can be variable. I thought (could be off here) that the bicycle spin was a stationary trick, no travelling!! The moonwalk and cartwheel do involve travelling and rotation!! Am I right, here??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 I understand this as two different things. Bicycle is one thing - stationary. Cartwheel or travelling bicycle is the other. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portlandflyer Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 I understand this as two different things. Bicycle is one thing - stationary. Cartwheel or travelling bicycle is the other. Bart That's what I understood it to be!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 The Bicycle is definitely rolling, not stationary, as can be seen in earlier AKA/STACK Compulsory figure Q-11. It was never taken on as an ISK Compulsory figure, however the pairs version (MP02 - Tandem) was an ISK Compulsory figure. q11.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 The Bicycle is definitely rolling, not stationary, as can be seen in earlier AKA/STACK Compulsory figure Q-11. It was never taken on as an ISK Compulsory figure, however the pairs version (MP02 - Tandem) was an ISK Compulsory figure. Open the htm file for the text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portlandflyer Posted August 8, 2011 Report Share Posted August 8, 2011 The Bicycle is definitely rolling, not stationary, as can be seen in earlier AKA/STACK Compulsory figure Q-11. It was never taken on as an ISK Compulsory figure, however the pairs version (MP02 - Tandem) was an ISK Compulsory figure. So the bicycle is performed higher in the window and the cartwheel and moonwalk closer to the ground?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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