My leaders ... your thoughts

[kwmf]

Hi all

I'm attaching pictures with measurements of the leaders I currently fly with so I can get some thoughts and comments...

I have marked the knots I fly on outdoors 99% of the time with a lime green dot. I fly a B series (vented and non) on these 2 knots depending on the wind. I've only just got the Zen so don't have a setting for that yet.

I've always got the impression that I should be shooting for an even bigger differential, but I've also had someone say I should make a slightly longer bottom leader for the handles (no snags) that I have - which would reduce the differential.

On a final note, I fly indoors with thes on the very last knots top and bottom and the bottom lines on the knot closest to the kite on the indoor rev.

So what say you .... do I need to increase the differential, am I in the ball park or have I overshot the mark?

Thoughts .... comments .... smutty remarks ..... all welcome

[johnnmitchell]

Hi all

I'm attaching pictures with measurements of the leaders I currently fly with so I can get some thoughts and comments...

I have marked the knots I fly on outdoors 99% of the time with a lime green dot. I fly a B series (vented and non) on these 2 knots depending on the wind. I've only just got the Zen so don't have a setting for that yet.

I've always got the impression that I should be shooting for an even bigger differential, but I've also had someone say I should make a slightly longer bottom leader for the handles (no snags) that I have - which would reduce the differential.

On a final note, I fly indoors with thes on the very last knots top and bottom and the bottom lines on the knot closest to the kite on the indoor rev.

So what say you .... do I need to increase the differential, am I in the ball park or have I overshot the mark?

Thoughts .... comments .... smutty remarks ..... all welcome

I would say try it out and see if you like it as is. If you do leave it that way.

My personal preference is a longer bottom pig tail. Most others, I think, prefer a shorter bottom pig tail.

[bartman]

I haven't measured mine lately.... or the leaders either... but I would say my top ones are very close to what you have there the majority of the time.

I fiddle with the top lines a lot trying to get a feeling for what I like vs. what kite and what kind of wind, but I usually never touch the bottom ones.

I've had the bottoms on the factory leaders both near and far from the handles and have not noticed a lot of difference. Lately I've had the bottoms on the farthest knot out.

But really, it doesn't matter. What feels right to you? I think you are over thinking it a bit just like I tend to do so I can say that!

Bart

Edited September 23, 2010 by bartman

[portlandflyer]

Steven - If it works for you, GO for it!! I've gotten away with tying an extra knot in the factory bottom pigtail and made my own top leaders!! I've used the Stone in Shoe Bob method for making my handles cleaner, and it looks to me like you're in the ballpark when it comes to adjustments! Remember, there is no right or wrong way!! Do what works for you!!! It's all about feel, how you get it isn't as important as developing "THE FEEL"!! KEEP FLYING!!!

[KiteLife]

If I remember right, our iQuad leaders are 8" or 9" on top and just 2" or 3" on the bottom, sounds like you're in the same range.

The million dollar question, how does it feel?

[portlandflyer]

JB - I agree totally!! Friends have tried my kites and think - How does he make this fly!!?? Others think too much forward and not enough brake!!! Who's "right"??!! The guy who's flying at that time!! I agree that going in the general direction of neutral handles is the way to go, but everyone has his/her own way of getting there!!!

[Mike]

With your setup, can you hold a hover? Can you go at a steady speed while flying a figure 8?

When you get a little gust, does your kite want to jump way forward, or does it hold its place?

[KiteLife]

Of course, a great deal of the factor here is how we hold our handles in flight, and how we manipulate the handle angle with our hands/fingers... A lot of different styles there too.

[kitecowboy]

Whoa! What a coincidence I was just having this conversation with a fellow today! My two cents, I think your bottom leaders should be slightly longer. I use the outer most knot (or equivalent) of standard B leaders. Seems to iliminate tip flips for the most part. Good luck, keep flying and remember…

[Baloo]

I started off with a second hand Rev 1 and an EXP. Came with all the standard stuff and just the short pigtails.

Then the threads came up talking about adding brake into the setup, no way I thought, how can you possibly fly like that.

Then I got my first B and started using the longer top pigtails. Took a while to get used to it. Then I found I was taking out the knots nearest to the handles to get even more brake into the steup.

Noe my top leaders are as long as the gap between the handle ends, however I rarely use the last knot. And my bottoms are possibly a bit longer than yours.

If anyone has not tried making up leaders to tune more brake into thier setup it is well worth trying. Give it a good try though. It takes a while to get used to.

I would go with the folks that are saying "if it feels right the do it" (as long as it is safe and not against the law of course)

The big sercret in case you dont know it yet, just go out there and enjoy yourself.

[kwmf]

The smutty comment award goes to Bart ... The most specific award goes to Mike for trying to describe the "feel" that everyone refers to.

Does my setup feel good ... I'm not sure I can yet recognise the desirable characteristics of a good feel. I can hold a hover and in gusts it does want to surge, but gets caught pretty easy - enough to count as a messy hover and not loss of control.

The harder one for me is in lighter wind - how much do I adjust the tops closer in (or do I leave them) and what feel am I looking for?

Steven

[Jonesey]

Only thing I would add is its always interesting to pick up other peoples handles once in a while (I know thats not that easy for you!) .... what I found was that you get used to a certain setup/balance point and tend to shuffle your hands up or down the handles to the point your comfortable with whatever the leader/handle setup ..

I 'ribbed' my handles to suit my podgy little chipolatas, effectively 'locking' my hands at the top of the handles which suits me because I like to have my thumb on the tip but others who try them prefer to be free to move their hands more or a lower position

I've actually taken the bottom leaders off my handles completely now and attached the lines directly to them (needs longer loops to pass the handle through) on the basis it was one less knot to catch on and I never adjust them plus the top leaders can then be shorter and I never change lines as I have 4 sets of handles lines setup ready to go anyway ...

[KiteLife]

My hands tend to wander up and down the foam, so Jonesey's ribbed (for his pleasure) handles wouldn't suit me at all.

(vying for 2nd place smutty comment)

Steven, just speaking for my squad, we do not pull the tops in for lighter winds (spilling more air), we stay with the same settings (flat sail = more pressure).

Only in the very highest winds do we let the tops out yet another knot to keep the kites controllable.

[bartman]

I accept that award on behalf of all the guys out there that thought it, but didn't say it! JB's comment, though, is right up there! Kite Cowboy suggested privately that I must have been comparing to the short bottom leaders. He's no angel either it appears.

With any luck I'm going to be getting quality and quantity time flying over the next four days and plan to experiment with the bottom leaders a bit more. Maybe some of my issues with reverse stuff can be fixed with bottom leader tweaking.

Bart

Edited September 24, 2010 by bartman

[kwmf]

Thanks for that ... I'd rather have 5 different specifics (with reasoning) than 100 unified "there is no one true way, use the force" type answers - it gives me 5 things to try out

Does iQuad always fly on the same knot, or is the knot set based on conditions?

[bartman]

This seems like a good time to ask. Define sail pressure vs. wind in the sail. If you know what I mean. Both you and Terry W. had this thing going at WSIKF when you did some adjusting on my leaders and Terry tried to explain it to me as well, but try as I might in a low wind with the top lines out I can't stay in the air. I have a tad bit more success with less brake in those situations, but overall not much going on in low wind.

Seems to me that you can have all sorts of pressure in low wind, but if it can't fly forwards without my wrists twisted backwards to the breaking point what good is it?

Bart

My hands tend to wander up and down the foam, so Jonesey's ribbed (for his pleasure) handles wouldn't suit me at all.

(vying for 2nd place smutty comment)

Steven, just speaking for my squad, we do not pull the tops in for lighter winds (spilling more air), we stay with the same settings (flat sail = more pressure).

Only in the very highest winds do we let the tops out yet another knot to keep the kites controllable.

[portlandflyer]

Steven - Sorry to have been one of those "force" type answers!! Try all your settings in different wind conditions and use the ones that you like the best! There is no standard setting that works for everyone, is what I'm getting out of this!! Because there's so much variety in length of leader, knot distance, position of hands on handles, etc, etc, there is no one perfect setting!! That's the beauty of this, what works for you may not be what I like at all!! It sounds like the goal is control!!! As long as you can comfortably control the kite and figure out new moves, then have at it!!

[KiteLife]

Does iQuad always fly on the same knot, or is the knot set based on conditions?

Steve (de Rooy) and I fly on the same knot pretty much all the time... The rest of our teammates float back and forth between a couple knots, but are still "tops out" quite a bit.

This seems like a good time to ask. Define sail pressure vs. wind in the sail. If you know what I mean. Both you and Terry W. had this thing going at WSIKF when you did some adjusting on my leaders and Terry tried to explain it to me as well, but try as I might in a low wind with the top lines out I can't stay in the air. I have a tad bit more success with less brake in those situations, but overall not much going on in low wind.

Simply, tops out (pressure setting) requires more consistent tension, knowing and feeling when the kite needs tension (backwards) or you can give back (reach forward)... Also playing into this is the initiating "pop" to get going, and keeping your inertia under control so the kite doesn't stall.

It's a fine touch, but when you get it, OMG.

You can pull the tops in to make the kite loft and fly forward easier, but it gets "light on the lines", drives me nuts, no power in the core.

[kwmf]

Steven - Sorry to have been one of those "force" type answers!! Try all your settings in different wind conditions and use the ones that you like the best! There is no standard setting that works for everyone, is what I'm getting out of this!! Because there's so much variety in length of leader, knot distance, position of hands on handles, etc, etc, there is no one perfect setting!! That's the beauty of this, what works for you may not be what I like at all!! It sounds like the goal is control!!! As long as you can comfortably control the kite and figure out new moves, then have at it!!

LOL ... You just went from "use the force" to "try everything"

I agree, but having a few very specific 'good' starting points is useful to eliminate some not so good choices. My point was that new people are asking questions because they don't know the answer. Every possible combination it too time consuming and no fun, use the force is too vague, and whatever feels right is useless because everything feels hard to begin with because it's new.

I like what JB did in his last reply in that he stated the what him and SdR use. He then followed up by saying what you can do to get more forward drive if you want, but stated why it is that HE doesn't like it.

He gave a few sets of specifics, said how you can change it to trade one thing for another and also why he himself doesn't use it. With that, a new person could try a setting close to JB, if they struggle they could then move it as he stated. If they don't mind the trade off they have still been following solid advice all the way. If they find the same dislike that JB has, then they know they should suck it up and go back to the previous setting.

All this said, all this is eliminated with hands on time with an expert. One thing that stands out in my mind about Barts WSKIF megafly video was when JB called out that someone may have an easier time by moving their hands down the handles a fraction. This is someone who is reading the signs and suggesting corrections based off of that ... something really hard to do without physical interaction. We would have to start posting pics and video in an effort to help in that regard. I think I may post a few pics of me flying yesterday so that my hand position can be seen.

As I get more skilled, so the more vague answers and theories will hold more value to me. But I appreciate all the efforts none the less ....

More to come

[kwmf]

Photos on me flying yesterday on these leaders using the further out of the 2 knots listed in the pictures.

Wind was around the 15mph mark with occasional drops as low as 8mph and frequent gusts above 18mph. The drop offs were very infrequent, but the wind was mostly around the 15mph mark. I was flying a full vent B series with 4 wrap frame.

The little heartbreaker you see next to me is my girlfriends 6 year old with her first time out using Prisms Stowaway Parafoil and I had no problem hovering my Rev next to it, backing out if it came towards me, flying under it and matching it, etc.

All this said, if I work on the assumption that iQuad are flying with maximum sail pressure, then my bigger differential is spilling air off the leading edge too much. This is fine in strong wind, but will hamper me in lower wind. Also, I find in average wind, it's easy to cause a lower wingtip to want to flip over, so that may be an indication I'm pushing it a bit far out for my level of refinement on the handles. The SLE will flip far sooner than the B for the exact same setup, but the B still threatens.

I have made new longer lowers with a knot out closer to iQuads 2-3 inch mark and my current 2 knots at their same current position. This will allow me to try out settings closer to iQuads and then fly directly against my own to see how I feel.

[KiteLife]

I'd be interested to see a photo of your hands where you're in forward drive, using "iQuad settings", flying across the wind window... Better yet, video of your full range of hand motions.

What you have in the photos you just posted is my ideal "resting" or control grip on the handles, but when I load up or go forward, my thumbs often come up on top of the nubs, levering the top of the handles backward for maximum forward and minimal wrist torque... The trick with my settings, if you just try to fly forward by angling, it won't go.. If you cup the wind and flex the kite with that "kick start" (sharp pull toward the solar plexus or upper chest), it will start moving and you just maintain that inertia and flex throughout until you're ready to stop and do hovers, etc.

With this in mind, one of my tuning philosophies is basically set it up so that when my handles are angled for maximum forward (bottom of my handles nearly touching the top lines), it's the most possible forward I could ever want... Anything more (where the wind spills) is tuned out completely.

Also, if your kite is flipping a wing when you try reverse, I'd say there's still some smoothing to be done on your inputs...

A. You're just hitting the brakes a little too far.

B. You're not grading your input (ramp up/down your input gracefully).

C. You've not learned where the actual flip point is (i.e. how far you can push it).

Movements might be quick with a pro pilot, but the inputs are graded on and graded off, slowly or quickly...

No sudden X-Y movements, like from HERE to THERE without feeling the grade between positions.

[kwmf]

Hi JB...

Thanks for the detailed reply, I'm definitely starting to gain a deeper and clearer understanding as we go back and forth with this. I hope this will help other long distance pilots also gain better insight into flying.

Having the setup rigged to relate full handle tilt directly to full forward flight was something I haven't seen mentioned before. I can see the logic and potential benefits. I like the theory and will certainly have that line of thought in mind as I compare my present settings to the shorter differential you fly.

As you can imagine, with my settings I needed to give it a pop to get going a lot of the time. Even if I change closer to your settings, that would still have been good practice. It should also mean I shouldn't struggle with your setting, so I can give them a fair comparison.

The tip flips I mentioned are most certainly influenced by lack of refinement. Both me and my girlfriend experience them on almost any of our Revs and both on the left side more often (we're right handed). We can reverse, but we tend to get it after starting and flying the reverse for a short distance.

I have new lower leaders that will allow me both my current setup as well as closer to your settings. The plan is to fly them against each other to see what differences I can observe. I have an idea in my head, but the real test will be in the flying.

I will certainly try to get you photos or video of whatever you need if you're prepared to look at it and provide your thoughts. You just want me to fly forward from window edge to edge in a horizontal line and get pics of my hands part way through?

For video of complete hand motion, what would you like me to do?

I'm assuming hover in 4 major orientations, hover to forward, hover to reverse ... Anything else?

Regards, Steven

[KiteLife]

Thanks for the detailed reply, I'm definitely starting to gain a deeper and clearer understanding as we go back and forth with this. I hope this will help other long distance pilots also gain better insight into flying.

Aye, I've pinned this topic, it's a good one.

Having the setup rigged to relate full handle tilt directly to full forward flight was something I haven't seen mentioned before. I can see the logic and potential benefits. I like the theory and will certainly have that line of thought in mind as I compare my present settings to the shorter differential you fly.

One of the advantages to this technique is, as an example, that I can put my index fingers at the very top of the handles and yank as hard as I want, giving the maximum forward I would ever want, without fear of luffing the sail or pulling the leading edge out toward me (unintentional 3D pull).

The tip flips I mentioned are most certainly influenced by lack of refinement. Both me and my girlfriend experience them on almost any of our Revs and both on the left side more often (we're right handed). We can reverse, but we tend to get it after starting and flying the reverse for a short distance.

The other aspect of reverse flight, is that it actually generates more sail pressure than forward does... With this in mind, you should also be aware, it takes a second to do so... Initiate your reverse like a hover moving backwards, and ramp up the back line pressure gradually as the kite picks up speed, don't do it all at once.

As you get better, the ramp up process becomes quicker (invisible) and more fluid.

I will certainly try to get you photos or video of whatever you need if you're prepared to look at it and provide your thoughts. You just want me to fly forward from window edge to edge in a horizontal line and get pics of my hands part way through?

For video of complete hand motion, what would you like me to do?

I'm assuming hover in 4 major orientations, hover to forward, hover to reverse ... Anything else?

I'd say, give a full 2 minute video of you doing pretty much your whole range of skills, especially problem areas, at least twice each, in light wind.

Once you've got the video, just stick it on YouTube and use the media tag to embed it here for discussion.

[bartman]

I'd like to see JB's hands and handles on "full forward" if you have a photo John.

I have horrible problems with flips in reverse and reversing up the window even when I try to ramp it.

Bart

[KiteLife]

Here are the best examples I have at the moment, no photo, just this video from Buenos Aires in 2006...

Technique has changed slightly since then, but the essentials are there.

[bartman]

I think you have more flexibility in your wrists than I do! I can't lay the handles almost flat! I know I cannot launch your kite with your regular set up though.

Bart