Quad sticks

[Theresa]

I think You can also get them from Theresa at The Kite Shop (http://thekiteshoppe.com/) though I couldn't find them on the website. I'm not sure if Scott Weider (http://magicquadsticks.com/Welcome.html) sells them directly or not.

Hi Brian,

Yes, Scott has made up some Quad Sticks and they are here at The Kite Shoppe. Not on the web site as yet, as he wants to add some instructions for set-up when we package them

His are 16"

I hope to pin him down to writing and finishing this up when he gets back here in a couple weeks.

[REVflyer]

The magic Stick modification is a nice rig after you get used to it, I'm currently using both sizes (12 & 16) and just too lazy to make 'em all match. I make my own and buy 'em pre-packaged occasionally as well. If you do it yourself, you'll have less knots. The Visa Card purchased path requires you to install it from the shipping container/package. Compromises are always made to simplify in manufacturing or when the public is asked to do part of the install. All the commercial sets have 7 truss lines that you install onto end-caps sporting four short legs and the corners of the kite. You larks-head the lines according to color markings (from a diagram) to the kite's end-caps and then onto the magic sticks. I recommend if you do it yourself you use only three lines and have the line pass-thru and exit out the same side (hole) so no knots on the ends.

maybe this will help speed the process?

[khalathur]

The magic Stick modification is a nice rig after you get used to it, I'm currently using both sizes (12 & 16) and just too lazy to make 'em all match. I make my own and buy 'em pre-packaged occasionally as well. If you do it yourself, you'll have less knots. The Visa Card purchased path requires you to install it from the shipping container/package. Compromises are always made to simplify in manufacturing or when the public is asked to do part of the install. All the commercial sets have 7 truss lines that you install onto end-caps sporting four short legs and the corners of the kite. You larks-head the lines according to color markings (from a diagram) to the kite's end-caps and then onto the magic sticks. I recommend if you do it yourself you use only three lines and have the line pass-thru and exit out the same side (hole) so no knots on the ends.

maybe this will help speed the process?

Thanks for the info Paul.

If I do it with three lines, is there a convenient way to adjust the length/tension of the lines? With the seven line version, each standoff endcap has 4 short pigtails with spaced knots for adjustment.

[REVflyer]

here's a diagram with both ways laid-out., The one on the bottom is how the commercial version comes. The one on the top is how you'd do it yourself with less knots. I "paint" the wraps with black nail polish afterwards so nothing can slip, (but I do that painting with my bridles too!)

Truss line & Caps.pdf

[khalathur]

here's a diagram with both ways laid-out., The one on the bottom is how the commercial version comes. The one on the top is how you'd do it yourself with less knots. I "paint" the wraps with black nail polish afterwards so nothing can slip, (but I do that painting with my bridles too!)

Thanks again. Those are great illustrations. You've really gone above and beyond to make everything clear, so please bear with me.

Why do you say that the commercial version (with the pigatils) is less effective due to the extra knots? Are they just possible snag points or is there another problem? My commerical rig has even more knots, since there are extra knots on each pigtail to adjust the tension in each line independently.

Which leads to my other question. With the 3-line version, how do you adjust the tension? Is it a matter of making the lines to the exact length and leaving them that way? Or is there a trick to it? I'm sure this is a newbie question. I've never tied a bridle or made my own linesets, so maybe this is obvious to someone more experienced.

I like the nail polish tip too.

[REVflyer]

if you're rolling the kite into the lines on the ground or significantly piling up slack lines on the ground while flailing EVERY tangle point is a concern. If it only catches one time on the extra knot of the commercial version, maybe that one time is during your demonstration or at a competition. Using the three line method you make each set of sticks specifically for one kite and you shouldn't change anything. The commercially ones are great, I use those, but my very best kites (all Bazzer Pros) have 'em custom fitted to each kite. The SUL B-series Pro even has the (cut-down one inch) shortening of the down-spars so the stick ends at the bottom of the sail. This also forces weight more forward towards the leading edge, altering the glide (favorably in my opinion).

I can still catch a flying line, but not very often and only when pushing the envelope with some extreme jerkin' and slack line movements.

The best way to learn is to buy a commercial one, see how it goes and then if you want to try it your self re-use those parts or source some of your own. Most folks are lazy (myself included) I'd rather go fly then spend time building. Sometimes you have to fiddle with it yourself when you know how you want it to feel and it doesn't. I started off not knowing which end of the cable wire plugs in for electricity to come thru,... I'm certainly not handy!

You can do this kind of junk, but practice first, particularly if your tying knots into spectra. There's no second chance here. You CAN add small overhead knots, to make it shorter, a little at a time. So if you make big loops you can change the overall length gradually if necessary. Big loops are going to "suspend snag points" which can potentially catch a flying line when rolled up though. If you practice you'll know EXACTLY how much length is taken up in the knot you're proposing to use, so you can position these snag points to your liking. I recommend the figure of eight knot, but it it tightens in both directions. You need to force all the tightening out thru one of the loops, only a visual demonstation will explain how this is accomplished, afterwards it will seem as easy as exhaling. If you don't want to do all of this work, pick-up the phone, pull out your Visa Card and wait a couple of days by the mail-box. It's commercially available and darn effective right out of the package.

[khalathur]

Thanks for all the advice Paul. So far I'm really liking the 12" commercial sticks I've got on my B std. I'm curious to see how different 16" sticks will be. Now I know how to tie them.

[REVflyer]

the easiest difference to notice is if the kite is standing up (leading edge up) on the ground and you simply stepped forward dramatically towards the kite. The kite should roll all the way over with the flying lines wrapped around the kite over the top, sail face down.

Shorter sticks will resist the action, but you're still getting most of the sissy benefits. Stiffness, kick-stands, better glide, less chance to snag a flying line, etc. I use both sizes but the longer ones do have a specific purpose. It's the ability to roll it up by simply releasing the air-pressure on the sail suddenly and allowing the wind to flip it over. With practice you should be able to overcome the shortness with a snappy wrist flick AND a step forward.

[ahofer]

Scott made me a set and installed them last week. I got my first chance to fly them today. I felt like I was cheating. Everything you do with relatively slack lines is a little easier - glide, axel, cartwheel through the window. You don't run as much risk of one side suddenly flipping or collapsing because you haven't been precise with moving the line tension in your hands.

I don't care for the extra set-up steps, or the way the kite rolls up. I was worried I would snag them, but I never did. In fact the line stayed under the kite a little better than without them.

They seem useful for flying alone here at the tree-surrounded Princeton Athletic Fields (http://www.kitemap.org/site-details?id=137&sname=Princeton/Washington%20Road%20Fields), where the wind can be both light and dirty.

[Theresa]

Scott made me a set and installed them last week. I got my first chance to fly them today. I felt like I was cheating. Everything you do with relatively slack lines is a little easier -

Great!! We thank you for your patience!!

And yes, another package is headed your way

Have fun flying!!

T

[ahofer]

I took them off today. Something isn't the same. It may be that the extra packing hassle harshed my buzz, or the lack of feedback when I'm not precise with my handles. Either way, I feel like flying without 'em is better for me.

I also replaced the SUL bridle, which was also annoying me. I keep thinking there must be something in between the two bridle weights that would work. LPG 150...or the leader/sleeve weight that Theresa puts on her LPG set-ups?

[portlandflyer]

I took them off today. Something isn't the same. It may be that the extra packing hassle harshed my buzz, or the lack of feedback when I'm not precise with my handles. Either way, I feel like flying without 'em is better for me.

I also replaced the SUL bridle, which was also annoying me. I keep thinking there must be something in between the two bridle weights that would work. LPG 150...or the leader/sleeve weight that Theresa puts on her LPG set-ups?

I've bought sleeving material from Theresa, it's 90# bridle line, with the core line removed to use as sleeving!!

[Robtulloch]

This is a really fascinating thread. Thanks to all for your input. I wonder how much more of an improvement can be achieved with the new diamond rods. Although the diamonds would be reactively resistant to being trussed up, the weight saving adds a new dimension.

Think I'm going to get some 16" sticks for my SUL.

Maybe a French Bridle too.

[REVflyer]

the new diamond tubes are another great addition to an already fantastic kite Rob!

get Flying Smiles Kites on the telephone/e-mail line, order their 16" sissy sticks and a replacement french bridle, put in the time to make it your own style of comfortable,... or dump 'em if you hate it (doubtful)

Long throw handles are the best edition to any SUL if you haven't tried 15 inch no-snags that's a great ticket too!

send me a private email and I'll coach you thru the install if necessary.

Your late night is my early morning

-plm

[Robtulloch]

Thanks for the offer Paul, really appreciate it.

I was considering changing to a regular bridle but have always been interested in a French version. So I thought why not get some magic sticks and a French bridle and make it a "new" kite. Plus I owe Cath $5 cause she undercharged me postage on my Rev bag, bless her.

I'll get in touch with Flying Smiles presently.

[REVflyer]

there's a bridle in between the stocker and the french bridle too, .... we call it the 1point6. Shooks carry that one as well, or used to anyway. If not give me a shout and I can mail one to you as well as the bridle board diagram to fabricate your own.

The 1point6 bridle is basically a modified stocker, the hinge connecting the components is smaller and the attachment point at the center is closer to the sail. What this means is a little less slop (wiggle) and little more response. My local club did a bunch of experimenting in 1999 and this is the outcome. I used it exclusively for probably a decade or more before switching to the french bridle.

When we schedule modification seminar testing you get four identical kites and change flying from one to the next every few minutes. Which mods you like doesn't matter until after a few days of comparisons side-by-side. Typically we use masterpiece Old Glories by Bazzer as the kite and the four are each built as SULs. One is box stock, two is stock + magic sticks, three has sticks + the 1point6 bridle and the 4th one is sticks with a french bridle. All the handles are the same and one coach tunes all the leaders.

Last time we did this seminar the students could tell who tuned the leaders after 3 days of comparisons, (wow!) not just which mods they connected with personally. Most favored Dugard's tuning preferences. There's no single correct answer, it's more about a destination and you select the route to get you there that is most personally comfortable to follow.

[Robtulloch]

Again, thanks heaps for the offer. I like the idea of having greater response so I'm going to try the French and Magic Sticks first. In for a penny, in for a pound. I'll give it a fair shake before I decide what's next. The good thing is my flying mate has the same kite, same age and hours of use (although I think I may be a bit more vigorous with my inputs...) so we'll have a stock to compare against.

[REVflyer]

Comparisons are so much fun! Comparisons make it easy to decide which things go and which stay when contemplating modifications or adjustments.

My "more responsive" is someone else's "too darn twitchy" It's not better, just different..... my own preferences, developed around a no-wind environment forced upon me by moving. Then enough hours to prove it's worth the change, expense.

Believe me, I watched a-plenty from the sidelines before mastering these difficult conditions. I moved from Chicago to Ft Lauderdale, then to DC and none of my darn kites would fly anymore! When you hang around a bunch of builders/engineers it's quite natural to fiddle with things. Most experiments end in failure. The important part is what did you learn? I've learned a lot and now want all that crap I like on my kites. I used to build kites myself but the factory can set you up with stuff better than I can craft myself (now anyway, that wasn't always the case!)

I have two Old Glory masterpiece kites, one with a french bridle and one stock. I also keep two 75% shook mesh kites the same way. What's really fun is trying to fly two at once with different bridles. It keeps you honest. Dugard makes this easy looking though.

You can't buy hours of experience with a visa card or I'd be one of the best pilots <LOL!>

[Robtulloch]

B2 is all kitted out with Magic Sticks. Going to give it a shake down tomorrow. I've used the 2 frame as I'll normally use that up to 30 kays (20mph).

[kwmf]

You need a permit to evacuate or tell people to evacuate?

[Robtulloch]

You need a permit to evacuate or tell people to evacuate?

So we can excavate, starting at 200mm depth. There is 7 permits on that wall! Paperwork. Hate it.

[REVflyer]

That kite looks like a ton-of-fun from my perspective!

A permit armed digger & a Rev flailer?,..... we can't wait to see those two aspects combined into a video

[Robtulloch]

That kite looks like a ton-of-fun from my perspective!

A permit armed digger & a Rev flailer?,..... we can't wait to see those two aspects combined into a video

Put in a little time on my "new" B2 today. Different. WOW different.

Love the response, makes an already responsive kite more reactive.

Have to have out for a little longer to give it a thorough going over.

7 Permits:

Authority to Work, Authority to Excavate, Work at Heights, Working with Guards Off, Hot Work, Confined Spaces and Hazard Reporting.

Some require up to 7 different pages to be filled in...

[Robtulloch]

SUL has been fully kitted out,

Diamond Rods,

French Bridle and

Magic Sticks.

Now if only the wind will calm down...

[REVflyer]

With those current modification riggings you can go into bigger wind than you ever thought was appropriate. Remember the whole point of all the rigging front and back is to spread the dynamic forces and increase the responsiveness. Since there's no oversteer wiggle possible in the bridle anymore you'll feel a strong surge of wind (across the center of the window for instance), easy to fly off to the side or up-top riding out a sudden unexpected gust. I give ground, but friends stand lead footed, it's been proven plenty strong, rest easy.

Make sure you have the bridle installed properly, when it's perfect and only then.... "paint" the knots with nail polish. Let this polish dry overnight, not just to your touch with a finger tip.

Tune the bridle with the kite inverted, ideally adjusting the attachment points on the bridle as opposed to the handles (the bottoms). That way when you switch from stock to French bridle it's tuned correctly either way. The kite needs to back-up inverted from the leading edge resting on the ground (in low wind you may need to walk backwards also).

Stock out of the packaging the FB is tuned to 15 inch no-snag handles with Barresi's leader knots. Myself I use longer handles and WAY longer leaders.

If it doesn't fly faster in forward and still hold all the reverse, if it doesn't feel more responsive, then give me a call and I'll coach you though some testing. We'd start with the usual questions. Lines even, laid out cleanly, affixed to the handles which perfectly align in your hands when jerked back tight from a well placed stake or fence post?

I expect you to love this rig like a first borne child, but it might not be the first few flights <LOL!>