Jim Foster Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 The way I learned to do this is to fly forwards across the wind window, then about half way through, I spin 180 degrees and continue flying, but now in reverse. I kept doing this and every once and a while adding another spin. Eventually you will get it to where you will cartwheel all across the window. I think Watty has it. Another way is to turn 1/4 turn at a time as you slide across the window, making only one complete turn. Once you have that going, add 1/4 turn each pass. All done very slowly. There is no one, sure, easy way. I think the most important thing is to not try to do too much all at once. Break it into small bites, you know, the way you eat an Elephant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted July 17, 2011 Report Share Posted July 17, 2011 Could I get some dipping sauce with my elephant please? Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I had to edit a bit of my last post. I incorrectly described the thumb position for the second pump. Its been corrected, although the post doesn't show I made the edit. Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 The results I seemed to obtain yesterday were not completely repeatable today More practice, dicing my elephant into smaller bites once again..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I think Watty has it. Another way is to turn 1/4 turn at a time as you slide across the window, making only one complete turn. Once you have that going, add 1/4 turn each pass. All done very slowly. There is no one, sure, easy way. I think the most important thing is to not try to do too much all at once. Break it into small bites, you know, the way you eat an Elephant. Hi Jim, "Very Slowly" is 'it' as far as I am concerned. The component parts or transitions need to be assembled 'slowly'. There is no rush of course as it may take some of us 20 years or more to learn. I'm still learning and enjoying every minute of it. Others may claim an instant fix but I like "slowly". Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I tried Watty's method last night. Reverse flight is such a major pain for me that it looked awful, but I can see where it gets the mindset going on the method. Again I had a couple that looked not bad but I had no idea what I did different to create it. I feel by the end of summer I'll have the basics on it. What was better was getting in the groove with the iPod and doing a fast dive and quick 180 at the end to set the bottom tips on the ground and hearing, overtop of the music, "WOW!" It startled me and I turned around to see two kids standing there watching. Don't know how long they were watching, but I'm glad I impressed them. Up until then I wasn't doing anything too special. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Foster Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 Hi Jim, "Very Slowly" is 'it' as far as I am concerned. The component parts or transitions need to be assembled 'slowly'. There is no rush of course as it may take some of us 20 years or more to learn. I'm still learning and enjoying every minute of it. Others may claim an instant fix but I like "slowly". Felix Felix Some of us may not have those twenty years. :confused!: When Lynn and I went flying yesterday I tried to break down exactly what I was doing to do the cartwheel. It's such a fluid motion that I find it hard to break down. I think Watty's way is most likely the best. Lynn had never done the cartwheel, but I had her doing is in just a few minutes. Not by any means perfect, but she was getting it. Bart You might want to work on your reverse flight before you get to crazy into the cartwheel, as one side of the kite is flying in reverse the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted July 18, 2011 Report Share Posted July 18, 2011 I like to work on all of it all at once! Keeps it interesting. I can do the stationary ones fine, just need to introduce the horizontal. Who knows, getting this sorted out may help the reverse. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahofer Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 I'm only so-so at it, but one thing I've learned is that you often need to moderate line tension along the way. At the extreme edges it can feel like a slack-line trick. A little flexibility throughout helps avoid the unintended sail flips and over-braking. But that's coming from someone who has to remind himself not to put the Mike Tyson "fists of steel" on his handles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Foster Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Just got back from flying. We have a soccer field near which is moat always empty and a nice Delta breeze. Lynn is catching on the the cartwheel fast. We were able to do them together a couple of times in both directions quite nicely. We only do one slowly, near the center of the window. After we get that, we'll go for two together. Looks pretty cool with a pair. Neat move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Just got back from flying. We have a soccer field near which is moat always empty and a nice Delta breeze. Lynn is catching on the the cartwheel fast. We were able to do them together a couple of times in both directions quite nicely. We only do one slowly, near the center of the window. After we get that, we'll go for two together. Looks pretty cool with a pair. Neat move. The pairs bicycle(cartwheel) was at one time one of the International Sport Kite Compulsory figures. This is what it looked like on the drawing: I flew this with my pairs partner Jeanette Braun de Bes about 10 years back at several competitions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Foster Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Question Is the cartwheel a tumble like a wheel rolling in the direction the kite is moving, or rolling in the opposite direction the kite is moving? In the diagram John posted, the kite is rolling in the direction it is moving. If this is a "cartwheel", what is the other move called where the kite is rotating in the opposite direction of flight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Question Is the cartwheel a tumble like a wheel rolling in the direction the kite is moving, or rolling in the opposite direction the kite is moving? In the diagram John posted, the kite is rolling in the direction it is moving. If this is a "cartwheel", what is the other move called where the kite is rotating in the opposite direction of flight? Jim, The cartwheel is the bicycle and it is also called the "Hadzicki Shuffle". The roll is like a bicycle wheel in the direction of the bicycle moves. Take a look at this old rec.kites thread: http://kites.tug.com/Archive/kites/potpourri/bicycle.with.a.rev.nomeclature ISK called this the Bicycle for individuals and Tandem for pairs. Now I have verified that the rotation in the opposite direction was originally called the Moonwalk. e.g. moving left to right rotate anti-clockwise Take a look at this old rec.kites thread: http://www.kites.tug.com/Archive/kites/potpourri/nomenclature.the.bicycle Wait, There is more! There is another similar move. It is called the Pivots. It is a figure today for both individuals and pairs. I first saw this flown by my friend Ronnie Schrabmeir of Lenz, Austria when we flying at he Fano Kite Meeting in Denmark. I proposed this to STACK around 1995. It became a figure the following year and a ISK figure around 2000. You fly up on the left side of the window. Stop and rotate 90. Move right a quarter of the window and rotate 90 in the same direction as previously. This will be repeated until there is a full 360 rotation and then you land. There are several ways to do this as can be seen in the present ISK Pivots and the previous version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Foster Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Lynn and I have been doing the moonwalk both directions, not the cartwheel. I do the cartwheel both directions, but I don't think Lynn has ever tried it. Guess I'll have to get her going on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Lynn and I have been doing the moonwalk both directions, not the cartwheel. I do the cartwheel both directions, but I don't think Lynn has ever tried it. Guess I'll have to get her going on that. Personally I find the cartwheel(bicycle) is easier to fly then the moonwalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Personally I find the cartwheel(bicycle) is easier to fly then the moonwalk. johnnmitchell, when flying the Moonwalk, do I need to touch the LE tips to the ground like when I'm trying for a cartwheel? If not, I'm already flying the moonwalk, although I can only get through about 2 rotations before I reach the window edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 johnnmitchell, when flying the Moonwalk, do I need to touch the LE tips to the ground like when I'm trying for a cartwheel? If not, I'm already flying the moonwalk, although I can only get through about 2 rotations before I reach the window edge. The moonwalk is normally flown above the ground, however tapping each tip as you go around adds some spice to it. The moonwalk is where you roll the opposite direction of how a wheel rolls as you move horizontally: - move from left to right you roll anti-clockwise - move from right to left you roll clockwise The bicycle(cartwheel(Hadzicki Shuffle)) is the opposite in that: - when you move from left to right you roll clockwise - when you move from right to left you roll anti-clockwise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[email protected] Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Gotcha! Thanks for the definitions Got the cartwheel working again today. I had to touch the LE tips to the ground to help with the rotations, but I think that is helping my overall progress.It was looking somewhat better done in mid-air than yesterday, but still needs lots of help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Felix Some of us may not have those twenty years. When Lynn and I went flying yesterday I tried to break down exactly what I was doing to do the cartwheel. It's such a fluid motion that I find it hard to break down. I think Watty's way is most likely the best. Lynn had never done the cartwheel, but I had her doing is in just a few minutes. Not by any means perfect, but she was getting it. Bart You might want to work on your reverse flight before you get to crazy into the cartwheel, as one side of the kite is flying in reverse the whole time. Hi Jim, I'm not sure that I have made full use of my 20 years which is part of 'my problem'. Being able 'possibly' to move the kite to any precise place in the sky was what caught my imagination 20 years ago. One of the team moves which I think is very interesting now is to 'roll the ball' across the window... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnmitchell Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 snip... One of the team moves which I think is very interesting now is to 'roll the ball' across the window... Felix Wicked! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Foster Posted July 19, 2011 Report Share Posted July 19, 2011 Personally I find the cartwheel(bicycle) is easier to fly then the moonwalk. True, however the moonwalk looks so cool. Always brings comments from folks watching. I don't think I want to touch the tips while doing the moonwalk as it would cause the kite to stop for the tip touch, taking away from the fluid motion that looks so nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HedgeWarden Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I like to work on all of it all at once! Keeps it interesting. I can do the stationary ones fine, just need to introduce the horizontal. Who knows, getting this sorted out may help the reverse. Bart Bart, Just a personal observation from a hack who is certainly not a adept as you (having flown next to you during the mega-fly) - however I have my reverse flight under pretty good control under good conditions.... As I try to fly the cartwheel, I am glad I have reverse flight under somewhat decent control. Otherwise I know I would not be able to get as far as I have - not total success yet, but at least the reverse flight does not trip me up before I get to my weak area. My weak area is transitioning from reverse flight to upright flight with side slide. There, my problem is removing the reverse (brake) smoothly to achieve forward and sideways thrust (upright side-slide position). Here's a cool idea: 9x9 mega-fly with everyone cartwheeling together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lylenc Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Is there a name for a cartwheel that goes in a circular movement in the window instead of horizontal movement? Not knowing the correct name, I refer to it as the Polo Thing, since his was the first video I saw it done. My son refers to it as the Ferris Wheel. I'm sure there must be one or more "real" names for it. Whatever they are called, mine vary from squares to ovals, with a few near-circles now and then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Bart, Just a personal observation from a hack who is certainly not a adept as you (having flown next to you during the mega-fly) - however I have my reverse flight under pretty good control under good conditions.... As I try to fly the cartwheel, I am glad I have reverse flight under somewhat decent control. Otherwise I know I would not be able to get as far as I have - not total success yet, but at least the reverse flight does not trip me up before I get to my weak area. My weak area is transitioning from reverse flight to upright flight with side slide. There, my problem is removing the reverse (brake) smoothly to achieve forward and sideways thrust (upright side-slide position). Here's a cool idea: 9x9 mega-fly with everyone cartwheeling together. I'm adept? Thanks. I consider myself a hack! I have issues with reverse flight, but it's not a total write-off. I can't do it without thought which I'd like to but I can do it. Mainly it is not always perfectly level or consistant speed and sometimes I over control and flip a tip out but it isn't stopping me from moving on. I practice reverse flight every time I go out and in different orientations. This year at WSIKF I am going to observe under the smoother winds and then pick more brains to see if I can ge the rest of the kinks out. Transitions are coming along good for me. Not all over the sky when I do them now so one more baby step. I might have to sit out your 9 x 9 grid cartwheel! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzer Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I'm adept? Thanks. I consider myself a hack! I have issues with reverse flight, but it's not a total write-off. I can't do it without thought which I'd like to but I can do it. Mainly it is not always perfectly level or consistant speed and sometimes I over control and flip a tip out but it isn't stopping me from moving on. I practice reverse flight every time I go out and in different orientations. This year at WSIKF I am going to observe under the smoother winds and then pick more brains to see if I can ge the rest of the kinks out. Transitions are coming along good for me. Not all over the sky when I do them now so one more baby step. I might have to sit out your 9 x 9 grid cartwheel! Bart Your no hack Bart! A word of advice to anyone trying reverse flight. A vented kite reverses easier. Bart is lucky enough to own a Xtra vent. It is the easiest kite to reverse fly. If you can hold a side ways hover on two middle fingers(ie not have the kite running forward) Your brake setting is correct. that is a good general rule for set up each time you fly. To much forward on the kite will mean larger wrist rotations which lead to bigger mistakes and over corrections. When turning corners on a horizontal ladder in reverse remember you are switching from one side ways hover to the other whilst travelling. So your hands must change from one hover to the other during the corner. Travelling rotations are clock work while traveling. Focus on the middle of the kite and keep tension on all lines. AGAIN if you are running to much forward it is more difficult. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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