Jump to content
  • 0

Do I really need a 2-wrap frame?


Strutless
 Share

Question

Hi All,  I'm new to this forum and new to flying Revs.  My first EXP is on the way and I'm already thinking of buying a full-vent B Series for 20+ winds

which we get very often here in South Texas.

Here's my question: The EXP will have a 3-wrap, the B Series comes with a 4-wrap and I have a choice of a 2nd frame. Should I get a 2-wrap to fly the EXP in

light wind or should I just get another 3-wrap to keep on hand?

BTW, I won't be flying the B until I've mastered the EXP.   I'm totally excited to be part of the Rev Crowd!!

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 1
On 1/10/2017 at 10:20 AM, Strutless said:

... I'm already thinking of buying a full-vent B Series for 20+ winds ... South Texas. ... The EXP will have a 3-wrap, the B Series comes with a 4-wrap and I have a choice of a 2nd frame. Should I get a 2-wrap to fly the EXP in light wind or should I just get another 3-wrap to keep on hand?

It is all about the wind.

I'd beware of the "race rods work with anything" comments above. I listened to advice like that until breaking a spar in a gust. Now that I've broken more than one I am more cautious about what to use. The gusty inland winds can strike in an instant.

Where do you fly already? Are you out on the beach by Corpus Christi, or inland by Laredo? I'm currently up near Austin, and the inland winds drive me crazy.

You write that you already have an EXP (full sail) + 3 Wrap.  That should work well in light to moderate winds.  Are your winds usually too light for that? Using a 2-wrap will give you a slightly lighter frame, meaning if your kite today is on the cusp of not flying at all, it should be able to handle the light wind. But I'd beware of gusts.

Or is your concern today that the EXP + 3 Wrap feels likely to snap in moderate winds? In that case you are right to get a vented sail.

For me with the irregular inland winds, I would get a mid-vent rather than full-vent sail. Around here in hill country the winds are constantly in flux. Light wind is impossible to fly in because it cuts down to nothing too frequently. If the wind is strong enough to need the full-vent sail then it is probably not comfortable for flying and gusts will be overwhelming. I fly my mid-vent with a 4-wrap or double spars more often than I fly my full-vent. When the wind suddenly drops I can keep the mid-vent in the air, and when it starts to gust I can pull to the side of the wind window. My two spar sets would be 3-wrap and 4-wrap.

If you're flying on the coast, and if you are set on a full-vent, and if you normally fly with steady winds, I would get a 2-wrap. Then you can fly the EXP + 2 wrap when winds are light, the EXP + 4 wrap when the winds are moderate, the full-vent + 2 wrap on moderate days, or throw in the 3-wrap or 4-wrap on the full-vent for windier days. Personally I would rather have the mid-vent then full-vent except for very string winds, since the full-vent is unwieldy with irregular or moderate winds.  

I have all three (standard, mid-vent, and full-vent) and the mid-vent sees the most flying time by far. The standard is second, and the full-vent is mostly there for when wind is too strong for comfort yet I don't want to go home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

It really depends on your wind conditions.  The two wrap is the lightest frame and is really good for those ultra light wind days.  Personally, if you are not flying in light winds then you may want to choose the Race Frame for your second frame.  It is just a little heavier than the 2 Wrap but it is also stronger so it isn't as fragile.  Most pilots like the Race Frame.  With the EXP and the B-Series with the Race Frame, you would then have a Race Frame, a 3 Wrap Frame (EXP FRAME) and a 4 Wrap Frame which would give you a great variety and wind range.

Hope that helps.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I would lean towards the race frame also, in either the green or the black. However, at this point in time, you will neither be able to tell the difference between those two and the 2-wrap, nor will you be able to use any of their properties to your advantage. They will not make you instantly better, or what you are learning easier. You may best served by holding off getting any of those until you begin gaining advanced control of the kite. They will literally do nothing discernible for you until you have a couple hundred hours of experience.

Get the vented kite, and the green race if it comes as a two-frame package. It is nice to have an extra frame in case you introduce the kite to the ground rapidly. Otherwise, just get the 4-wrap frame, and save the money for an SUL kite which will come with a 2-wrap in most cases, and allow you to fly in near zero wind once you have gained enough experience. Did I mention that experience will help a lot, both in flying and deciding which frames will best suit the wind conditions in your area and your flying style? Oh, yeah, flying style will make a difference too. Just saying, don't rush to buy lots of equipment now that you may not use later. Put the money into extra lines and better handles for now. Each kite you buy will come with a frame that you will use 95% of the time for that kite's wind range.

Of course, if you're an equipment junkie like me, just get three of everything out there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

IMHO in this spot of your learning curve - a Green Race might be best. The 2 wrap in either kite can lower the range of each, but while strong, the 2 is definitely a more fragile selection. The "greenies" are practically indestructible in either sail! 

 

PS: while my own personal choice - I hardly ever use a 4 wrap frame anymore. I prefer a little "belly" to the sail. I find the 4 wrap just a little too stiff for my liking and use either a 3 wrap or the green race rods as my frame of choice. It's getting used to the bend in the LE and knowing when it gets too much for your liking. Many beginners underestimate the strength of the rods. That is not a recommendation to go way too light for the conditions, rather just an observation that many beginners over frame.   Use what you are comfortable with, then maybe experiment. Might find your "sweet spot".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

4 wrap or double spars?? Never used a double LE yet and rarely use a 4 wrap. If it is gusty enough to need a double LE, then a full vent would be in order. While I don't believe a black race frame is the answer in all situations, I will suggest it is in a lot of them. And Green race too. Thing is practically indestructible under anything but extremes. They come standard in the New York Minute for that very reason - hard to break. I use my green set in my Xtra-Vent and had it in 30 mph before with no issue. 

There is a reason for all the models in a type - sails to match winds. So too the frames if you choose to do that. With a combo of 2, 3, 4 wraps, or Black race, 3, 4 wraps, or 3, 4, green race, you will have pretty much everything needed to match most conditions, Also remember that bl. race can replace 2 wraps and green race can replace 4 wraps if so desired - your choice of what you are comfortable with and use. 

Those of us that go the "race fits all" route, are usually those that are comfortable with more flex in our LEs. We know the limits of what the frame can take and myself, switch sails as needed. After a stroke, I have no desire to do the "superman" on sand or grass. I tend to be one of the earliest on the beach to switch to a more vented kite for that reason, I don't want to be pulled. I want precision.

My own set ups -

Zen - hybrid of mixed spars frame

SUL - diamond frame

Std - bl. race frame

Mid - bl. race frame

F/V - 3 wrap frame or Shook with bl. race frame

X/V - green race frame

As you can see I do like the race frame in a lot of my kites, but not everyone likes or uses it. Really depends on your style of flying.

YMMV

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

If you are on the beach -- and by your location that is likely -- then I agree with you completely.  On the beach where winds are steady that is true.

I love flying in Oregon beaches when I travel, but that hasn't been since 2015.  Wind predictions say things like:  Winds 14 knots, gusts to 16 knots.  Or winds 7 knots, gusts to 10 knots.  Or 4 with gusts to 5. That is nice, steady, fun wind.  Race rods for everybody!

However, he wrote about South Texas winds, which are incredibly gusty and irregular. When looking at predictions on WindFinder, it is fairly common to see a huge range.  I'm planning on flying tomorrow over lunch, where the wind production is 7 knots with gusts to 30 knots. NOAA simplifies it to 12 knots. Over the Christmas break there was a group of us in a park, all flying with full-vent or mid-vent sails, and we were alternating between being dragged across the park one moment, to walking slowly trying to stay in the air the next moment. 

I've lost too many rods to these gusty inland Texas winds that I no longer trust a flexible frame. It is always about the local wind, and the wind around here jumps from calm to raging bursts and back faster than a moody teenager.  If you are flying in inland Texas, I recommend a stronger frame to compensate, or budget a few bucks a month for replacement spars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

One of the things I like about the setups is that they are so flexible in use. To me there is no "right or wrong" about it, just what works for you! That is why I included my list of normal setups - to give people an idea of what I use. I do fly a lot on the coast, but here in Portland proper, fly inland often. Or in the Columbia River Gorge to take advantage of the river winds. 

Our wind swings are more like a building or lessening as the day goes by, with some gusts, but not nearly as extreme as you describe. I have on occasion used 4 different sails on a single day! Some like frame changes, some use sail changes - it really comes down to finding and using the combo that works best for you and your conditions. My list isn't and wasn't meant as a "you must do it this way" thing, rather a guide to what I use and hope you can get some ideas from.

Do you fly the "B" series? They were designed to have some flexibility in the LE. Having that flex allows the sail to belly out and increase control!!

PS: the beach is a 2 hour drive from my house!! Don't get down there nearly enough!

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
13 hours ago, portlandflyer said:

Do you fly the "B" series? They were designed to have some flexibility in the LE. Having that flex allows the sail to belly out and increase control!!

Yes, the design in my profile picture at left. I agree about that, the bowing frame does change how the kite flies... until the spar snaps.  I worry about the leading edge because it is visibly bending, but it has always been a vertical spar that breaks for me.
 

13 hours ago, portlandflyer said:

PS: the beach is a 2 hour drive from my house!! Don't get down there nearly enough!

That is true for us all, I think.  

I haven't flown at all this month, and we're on the last day. I plan on remedying that this afternoon. The 3.5 hour drive to my nearest beach won't fit in my early lunch break, so Texas Hill Country winds for me. WindFinder has changed the prediction for these irregular winds, slightly better range. I can only wish for beach winds. :rolleyes: 

FO2qrnB.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I use the lightest weight frame available as conditions and kite sail selections warrant.  Alone,

I want it very flexible so it "powers up" instantly when doing tricks or slack line floating.  In a team environment I would prefer the kite "tracks" better, sacrificing some of that natural power-up that happens when the frame cups the wind.  I guess I should state, I run with a different bridle (more legs, less wiggle) and magic sticks on the back too.  These items stiffen the frame and spread the stress over a larger surface area (like a suspension bridge) also increasing the responsiveness of pilot commands (for me, you might think it's too twitchy)

My set-up with a two wrap or Diamond frame flies when my flying companion/friends are all using Green race.  I carry up to 4 wraps, but my God it has to almost blowing over the porta-potties before I will use 'em.  I never double up the leading edge tubes because I have the sleeves built tight to a single stick.  Two won't even fit in there.  Tight is more repsonsive.  Maybe using a Shook 135% with diamond frame, flying it in a steady high single digits to low teens wind range.  Why?, because that set-up is so slick smooth, it doesn't even look like I'm on the handles.  Another time I'm spanking a 40% Mesh with green race when everyone else is on Vickis, Extra vents or Shook 135s.  Why? because I'm at the back of the quad team line and I can veer off at any "Man Song Moment" to throw down a slack line trick.

If I like how a particular sail pattern is flying I'd switch out the leading edge rather than go set-up a new kite. At a competition though every possible selection choice would have string and handles, be on the field with me ready, so I could select at the last possible second.

A flexible frame always captures every winking bit of air pressure, but the kite wants to turn inside it's own center too.  It won't track a straight line for beans, without excessive inputs.  Slap a stiff frame in there and tracks like it was on railroad tracks, but it won't float all 4 lines on the edge and stay powered up unless you move your feet when stationary if the wind dies suddenly.

Want to "throw the kite"?,... that criteria leans towards a stiffer & heavier leading edge tube choice, so you can penetrate the down-wind like a javelin.  Want to catch the kite?,.... now a flexible leading edge has preference, so it floats longer upwind instead of falling straight down from directly above.

I'd recommend you get as wide a selection of frame members as possible, Diamonds, black race, green race, 3 wraps 4 wraps,..... all of them, heck you might even prefer the bending and response of the 2 and 3 wraps.  they're not my choice, but lots of folks swear by 'em.  ShyShark makes a great tube too, I've used cut-down 2P tapers as down spars for low wind.

Experimenting is almost as much fun as flying.

I truly live in the land of no-wind,... 5 months out of the year we have indoor conditions with an unlimited ceiling!  We get a steady double digit wind?, then the schools will be closed for a week.  I had to learn technique and address equipment needs to master these local conditions.  Probably 25K dollars and ten thousand hours.  Guess what? I own no-wind now, I prefer it and secretly pray for a dead calm when in competition.

Black race = weight of 2wrap with the strength of 3 wraps

green race = that same stick above, but now it's so strong it can go under water (thanks for complaining Rich Comras, we miss U!) because of a coating applied

Diamonds = super responsive, delicate custom order spar, (like an indoor tube in weight) used outside, expensive and worth EVERY PENNY.  Not fishing pole carbon, but stuff for NASA's needs.  Yeah that is the ticket to low wind.  The responsiveness of cross-bow with the weight of an archer's bow

I probably have a couple of dozen revolution kites in various configurations of frames and sails pattern layouts.  Lets say half of 'em are for no or low wind. Like the golfer who owns a bunch of putters, trying to find that one that's sprinkled with magic dust.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I fly inland wind, period. Rule of thumb here in the Chicago area is: Choose the sail for the lulls, choose the frame for the gusts. In other words, if the wind is averaging 10mph with lulls down to 2mph and gusts up to 30mph (yes, it does happen here, often) you put a 4-wrap frame, or a 2-wrap + 3-wrap, in a standard sail. Yes, it will stretch the sail prematurely, but do you want to fly or just sit there and watch?

Obviously, when the wind isn't quite as crazy, you can bridge the gap with something a bit less extreme. And that's the beauty of it all. No two flyers will always use the same setup, but they will achieve the same result even though their flying styles differ. Experience allows one to tighten that gap between the extremes or go no holds barred depending on your intent. As JB says, "Fly with intent."

We all have preferences and know the conditions in the areas we normally fly. The wind is deceptive and will make you or break you. Experience equals survival in unfamiliar conditions. Check out as many variations as possible so you can fly in any wind you encounter.

So, to answer the original question: Yes, no, maybe.

Don't become one-winded. Have fun, smile, and don't forget to breathe. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

An interesting conversation. While I do get Frob's point to a degree on stiffer frames for gusty winds, I stand by my race in nearly everything. And I have flown my share of South Texas winds too ;-)

 

It's also fair to say that the vast amount of my flying in the last couple of years has been on oceans, so, maybe I'm getting soft, old and lazy. MAYBE.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I'll be honest, I only skimmed the responses.... but

 

As the second frame, get a black race. Some dealers even give you the upgrade for only an extra buck!

A black race will be marginally, a couple of grams if at all, heavier than a 2 but the workability of it is much higher. The loading of the race will have you going lower and higher on a given sail compared to a 2. Some cases a 3! 

A race frame loads/unloads far easier and faster than a given wrap frame. It reacts to inputs faster. A Race can work the gusts and lulls better (read more efficiently) than either 2 or 3 frames. I have popped 2 Race spars but that was my fault. Too much wind in the wrong sail and the verts broke.

I use a Black Race in my Standard and MidVent sails with a 3 in the Vented and PoloVTD (like an XTRA). 

 

Yes, it will work in ALL sails but effectiveness is greater in the Standard. 

 

All told. My absolute favourite set up is a Standard sail with a Black Race frame on 30 footers. And trust me on the 0 to 20mph wind range!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 1/31/2017 at 9:38 PM, monkey said:

An interesting conversation. While I do get Frob's point to a degree on stiffer frames for gusty winds, I stand by my race in nearly everything. And I have flown my share of South Texas winds too ;-)

 

It's also fair to say that the vast amount of my flying in the last couple of years has been on oceans, so, maybe I'm getting soft, old and lazy. MAYBE.

When your 4-wrap in a vented looks like this you can drop the broken pieces of your race frame in the nearest garbage can on the way home. The curve in the leading edge is greater than it appears to be. The photo is taken from towards the front of the kite. Take a look at the curve in the uprights. I'll let you guys guess the wind speed and give you the numbers a bit later.

11080718_10205595193333500_3216189584880453018_o.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
23 hours ago, makatakam said:

When your 4-wrap in a vented looks like this you can drop the broken pieces of your race frame in the nearest garbage can on the way home. The curve in the leading edge is greater than it appears to be. The photo is taken from towards the front of the kite. Take a look at the curve in the uprights. I'll let you guys guess the wind speed and give you the numbers a bit later.

11080718_10205595193333500_3216189584880453018_o.jpg

Looks like time to switch to an X/V!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
15 hours ago, REVflyer said:

in the photo offered it appears you'll need to tighten the elastics, but do the top ones FIRST so the down-spars are not pushed up above the leading edge surface.

 

Oh, yeah. Did that right after that fly, and several times in the years after. Also, that's one of my kites that has bungee modifications, so if the wind is stronger than recommended for it, they move dramatically with each gust and lessen its effect. What you see was caught in mid-gust. That kite is on its third or fourth set of elastics.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
On 2/12/2017 at 7:05 AM, makatakam said:

When your 4-wrap in a vented looks like this you can drop the broken pieces of your race frame in the nearest garbage can on the way home. The curve in the leading edge is greater than it appears to be. The photo is taken from towards the front of the kite. Take a look at the curve in the uprights. I'll let you guys guess the wind speed and give you the numbers a bit later.

11080718_10205595193333500_3216189584880453018_o.jpg

*smirk* Yes dear. I think it's fairly safe to say that I wouldn't have a race frame out in such wind. Thanks for the tip. ;-) As I said in my initial reply :  "with the sole exceptions being a vent or XTRA Vent, at which point I'll opt for 3 wraps." Maybe even 4s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I promised I'd let you know what the wind speed was. That day the wind was totally freaky. I was flying at Busse Woods NW suburban Chicago area. The wind was there, then gone, then OMG! blowin at 22-25mph, dropping to 10-12mph quite often and gusting to 35mph just as frequently, all within as little as 20 seconds, and changing direction as much as 90 degrees with no intermediate transition. Very, Very "Disturbed" wind. The photo was snapped in mid-gust. When the wind dropped the sail was as flat as a board. Totally weird day of flying, with lots of time spent at the top and edges. One of those days you never forget.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...