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jemwharton

Science of inverted wobble

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I was wondering what is the science behind the inverted hover wobble.

My own personal wobble is slowly disappearing although I am not aware of what I am doing differently. Except for time on the lines.

I know this wobble is down to me as a pilot as a recent trip to Portsmouth kite festival a experienced rev pilot flew my kite and no wobble grrrrr!

Loving my rev journey☺

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Yep, it's all time on the lines. You are beginning to make minute adjustments in response to what you feel instead of what you see. Once you see it, it has already happened. The control comes when you can feel what is about to happen and correct for the inconsistency in pressure before it moves the kite. Smooth wind helps dramatically, and minimizes the amount of adjustment necessary. If the wind is particularly strong and gusty it won't give you enough time, so the kite will wobble a bit. When you stop having to think about it your mind will begin making adjustments automatically and stability becomes instinctive. Try "jiggling" the bottoms of the handles for even more control. See JB's tutorials on hovers. He mentions "waggling" the handles in one or more of them.

It's definitely a journey. Have fun, smile and don't forget to breathe.

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Almost every time, wobble is caused by the corrections being too big! The left side gets out of whack, you try to fix, and overdo it, then the right side messes up. So try to use as small a correction as possible!

If you are still learning this, here is a good exercise: put the kite on the ground inverted. Point your thumbs towards the kite and slowly step back. The sail should rise off the ground. Experiment with those small corrections I mentioned, when the kite gets out of shape. If it gets badly messed up, just step forward and land - no harm, no foul. As you get more comfortable, try higher and higher.

PS: it may help to put your handles out a bit to the sides, not so straight up and down, sort of splayed in the shape of a "/\".

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Thanks for the replys people I can honestly say that this is probably one of the few learning experiences in my life that has not involved any frustration. Just a slow drive home with a big smile on my face looking probably like a mad man☺

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<snip>

PS: it may help to put your handles out a bit to the sides, not so straight up and down, sort of splayed in the shape of a "/\".

I go for the full horizontal handles which I have described elsewhere. Not so easy for the beginner to be sure! Arms are straight down as well, just to add to the mix. While none of this is in any way mandatory I have been watching posted pics for some time now to check what we are all doing in practice <grins>

The learning experience is fun and goes on and on...

Felix

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Sadly no wind for me today, but forecast great tomorrow I will keep you updated on my wobbly bits☺, less control, less control must keep that in mind!

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I have been flying Revs since 1990 and competed quite a bit in the 90s.

One of the things I found about the wobble thing is thinking too much what your hands should do.

I know when I start to think about it, the Rev starts to wobble.

In time, which is not long, you relax and your hands will naturally react before you have time to think about.

A distraction does tend to help, such as conversing with someone while you fly.

I don't know why, but that is how it goes, at least with me.

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A distraction does tend to help, such as conversing with someone while you fly.

That is exactly what triggered my inverted hover ! ani_victory.gif

Bill

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Also, loosen up your grip on the handles. The death grip isn't necessary, just tight enough so the wind doesn't take the kite away from you. Think of it as holding a baby bird as opposed to strangling a snake.

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To have a lighter grip when in a hover, you can lower your hands on the handles.

I found it helps to hold them near the point where you do not have to apply brakes to fly reversed.

I'm also pointing the brakes out on my handles when hovering in reverse (I also hold the upper handle more or less horizontal when flying with the leading edge vertical).

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I also hold the upper handle more or less horizontal when flying with the leading edge vertical.

Looks like we hold handles the same Henri !

Bill

post-3812-0-45725200-1473346353_thumb.jpg

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I think if you eliminate some of the extra pressure on a line or 2 it will become a smoother hover. If both brakes are pointed outward one line will be over another on the one side. If the left side line are above the right lines and both brakes are facing left none of the 4 lines are touching each other. If the right lines are above the left lines and both brakes are pointed right none of the 4 lines will be touching each other. If none of the lines are touching another line there is no extra pressure forced onto a line causing undue wobble.

You can see this in action by turning your body along with the direction of the kite, naturally you can't fly standing on your head, but you can get pretty close to looking at the kite upside down and your brakes pointed pretty much straight up in the air, and you'll see very little wobble, you might pass out going back to a normal position too quick, but when you wake up you'll remember none of the lines put extra pressure on another line.

That's my story (and I'm sticking to it).

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Sorry hyzakite are you saying to have both handles horizontal but facing the same direction? Thanks for clarification in advance, sorry for being a bit s l o w☺

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Yes, that's about what I'm saying, as far as the science of the wobble. If you can picture the girl at the circus tied to a wheel spinning around as the knife thrower throws knifes at her. If she was tied to that wheel flying a rev turned upside down, she would be flying forward with handles vertical brakes towards her feet, but you would see the kite flying upside down as her feet are facing straight up.

The biggie is, when you're hovering forward your lines don't touch each other. Why limit the no touch to just the forward hover if it is possible to hover inverted without the lines touching each other also?

If you have your brakes both facing outward, one of the lines will touch another line placing force on the other line causing a correction that isn't equal on both hands. That equals wobble. If in reality you could do cartwheels while flying forward in your eyes, others would see the kite spin and the lines would never touch or cross each other.

I just went by the "science behind the wobble" If a bird landed on one of your 4 lines it would throw the balance off. Just watch your lines touching each other in the hover, then try avoiding any lines touching each other in the same hover next time out.

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Sorry hyzakite are you saying to have both handles horizontal but facing the same direction? Thanks for clarification in advance, sorry for being a bit s l o w☺

Yes, in theory. In reality, your lines will touch and slide across each other. The amount of friction this causes is insignificant until you have more than five wraps in the lines, unless you are using old worn out or dirty lines. When the lines begin to bind, control becomes more difficult, each wrap adding a touch more friction to the equation, until they bind completely and will no longer slide past each other without major effort. This happens earlier with more pull on the lines in stronger winds.

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Just for something else to try: put a wrap in your lines first - and then try hovers! Sometimes that wrap slows down your over-controlling the sail. Inputs are a little more smoothed out going through the wrap, so it might be a good idea to try?!?

Nice thing is that there is no "right or wrong" way to go about this, only what works for you. It's still up to you to take the ideas we give and try them, sort out the ones that work for you, and then incorporate them into your "style"!

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Well I had a much better day today I tried to put into practice everything, lighter control, trying not to think to hard and yes Bill a bit of magic amongst other things. Although standing on my head was real hard. I made a short 1min video you can watch if you want. This forum is cool for advice. Just need to practice practice practice https://youtu.be/vVVG_Y9WJOE

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Well I had a much better day today I tried to put into practice everything, lighter control, trying not to think to hard and yes Bill a bit of magic amongst other things. Although standing on my head was real hard. I made a short 1min video you can watch if you want. This forum is cool for advice. Just need to practice practice practice.

You're doing fine. By listening to the wind in your video I can tell that you have the same kind of crappy, gusty, direction-changing wind we have here in the Midwest in the US. The difficult conditions will make you a better pilot in the long run. When you get a chance to fly in some consistent wind it will be sooooo easy. Try one or two knots more brake. This will allow you to ease up a bit on the angle you need to hold the handles at to maintain altitude while inverted. Less effort allows you to relax your grip and the amount of muscle tension to hold your hands in position. In the wind you had a vented kite would have helped tremendously with holding it steady, especially in bumpy wind. The venting nullifies a sizable portion of the buffeting by letting the lumps pass through instead of pushing on the sail.

Again, more time on the lines will make your muscles work almost automatically to make small adjustments. Just get out and fly as often as possible. Take frequent breaks. Fly 20-30 minutes, then take a 10-minute break. Fly to the top of the window, turn over and fly down as slowly as possible. When the kite is moving slowly it is more stable, even in lumpy wind, and will speed up the muscle-memory process. Definitely add some brake; it will make a big difference.

Have fun, smile and don't forget to breathe.

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Hi makatakam, I did try more brake today (fiddled with settings all day) and although with more brake it was easier to fly inverted, my problem was then with the kite the right way up i found it increasingly hard to fly the right way up. LOL not sure if i want to spend my life upside down. So does adding more brake make another problem that is getting forward drive while being the right way up. Thanks for the pity oops I meant encouragement.

Jeremy.

P.S. yes the wind is a bit lumpy but like you say if I can get it together here when I get down to the coast then all will be good☺

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About the only thing I saw in your video was the lack of wind to try and keep the kite in a hover, I would want more wind to do what you was doing in that amount of camera space, and trying to hold a spot just for the camera makes for a hard row to hoe, looks good to me!

For just flying instead of just hovering you'll find the right balance you'll be looking for different each time you fly, I always fly to music and the music is different albums, mostly old stuff.

You hover looks fine!

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I watched your other video, you had a lot of bugs flying around, same here this time of the year. I didn't hear any music but I always fly to music. Flying to the notes and sustain makes for a nice day.

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