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precision figures


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So, I heard thru the grapevine that one of the judges deducted points, . . . if the fliers weren't "stationary" during the entire figures. Is that the correct approach? A personal policy decision?

Since I'm flying inside a hemisphere with the wind window superimposed upon it, doesn't the perspective change depending on my current position? Let's say there's a dead calm or slight swirly hint of a directional breeze to work with, (it's fly or die, no wind rules will be in effect for the entire weekend) To hold a hover or back-up inverted I must add my own energy. My hover is still stationary from my own perspective, right? I can't remain stationary on the kite handles without moving my feet and adjusting the handles ever so slightly during the darn thing.

If the wind shifts 20 degrees right of center, wouldn't my inverted side slide be allowed to use more field in that direction as well?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the whole point of precision.

If I picked a centerline and inverted flight on it to the top of the window, I might need to walk backwards. Does the perspective of the flyer represent that center line? Does it hurt my score if I must add my own energy and walk backwards or even diagonally backwards to hold that center line and rate of ascent? Say I'm drawing a big circle with the leading edge. At Dory Park in Richmond I'd need 60 feet walking backwards not two steps!

Should I have been flying an indoor REV instead of a full sailed SUL 1.5?

I also started my technical routine in a rolled-up position and ended with a catch (You can't change who you really are, regardless of the circumstances!)

I'm pretty new to this whole aspect of kite flying, so laugh all you want, but I'm requesting input or clarification.

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oh you know me Rich, . . . ... I enjoyed myself enough to try it again! I came in second and Carl Berg was clearly superior to my efforts. I just didn't think it mattered if I used everything available to me, including my feet!

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Um no, I'd call that an incorrect judgement myself, and I've judged more than a few of these over the years. You are correct for the reasons you put forth. I was -always- told to ignore the flyer and concentrate on the kite itself during the figure.

I'm sure John will pipe in on this as well

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Here's the point of contention...

The precision of a compulsory is determined by a stationary viewpoint (frame of reference).

In an ideal world, both pilot and judges are stationary (depth-wise)...

If the flier moves, say, 50 ft to the left halfway through a compulsory, then the center of the window changes and the judge's perspective is no longer accurate.

Same if either (not both) moves forward or back a lot, again, the frame of reference gets skewed.

I don't have an answer, although I'm familiar with the philosophy you described.

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if the flier moved, then a deduction in score shall be accounted for.

That is a statement I'd have a problem with particularly in zero wind conditions!

If the figure was ugly or incomplete

(but I was standing on one foot in a dead calm)

would you add bonus points to my score?

I don't care either way,

I'd always thought we were to ignore the flyer and focus only on the kite

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if the flier moved, then a deduction in score shall be accounted for.

That is a statement I'd have a problem with particularly in zero wind conditions!

If the figure was ugly or incomplete

(but I was standing on one foot in a dead calm)

would you add bonus points to my score?

I don't care either way,

I'd always thought we were to ignore the flyer and focus only on the kite

Well, that's the key isn't it...

If you watch only the kite from a fixed position and the flier walks back 75' during an octagon, the shape and proportion is going to look like crap.

Solutions?

1. Judges maintain their distance/angle to the flier by walking or running with them... I know a lot of judges who can't or won't do this.

2. As a flier, use your ground and angle to try and preserve the judges perspective as much as possible.

3... ?

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Hi, OK - I was a judge. for over a decade, up to World Cup level. Things have changed, so...

1. Take a copy of any judge or rule book to every event. If a Judges say you can't do something ask them to show you where it says that.

you could email them some of the links to videos from competitions, Steff Ferme -

, Richard Debray
, Chris Goff

Precision Steff

Here's the point of contention...

The precision of a compulsory is determined by a stationary viewpoint (frame of reference).

In an ideal world, both pilot and judges are stationary (depth-wise)...

If the flier moves, say, 50 ft to the left halfway through a compulsory, then the center of the window changes and the judge's perspective is no longer accurate.

Same if either (not both) moves forward or back a lot, again, the frame of reference gets skewed.

I don't have an answer, although I'm familiar with the philosophy you described.

JB 2nd Post

Well, that's the key isn't it...

If you watch only the kite from a fixed position and the flier walks back 75' during an octagon, the shape and proportion is going to look like crap.

Solutions?

1. Judges maintain their distance/angle to the flier by walking or running with them... I know a lot of judges who can't or won't do this.

2. As a flier, use your ground and angle to try and preserve the judges perspective as much as possible.

3... ?

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I have had a problem with this. Wind window is defined by the kite and line pivoting around the pilot 180 to left and right and straight up and is a rectangle. Figures are defined by that. The pilot should be able to define the window before flying the figure and the better the figure is flown in that window the higher the score with the judges never looking at the pilot. This is much more important on dual line and figures like steps down. The other problem is the figure is defined in a planar format and flown on the perimeter of a quarter sphere.

It has bothered me that many judges have different views on this and no one seems ready to do the definitions.

Guess that goes with a small sport in a subsection that is unpopular.

John

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you're right about that! There aren't enough of us around anymore to complain about anyone, we only had three judges on the panels but at least it was better than single.

Nest time (if I remember!) I'll ask the "question" during the pilot's meeting, then listen to what comes back as a response.

I usually define the window by how far around the parameter I can fly (all the while flying inverted) before I start the figure. I figure if it's powered-up in that orientation, then I should be good to go. I'm looking for landmarks or clouds, some reference points to help position the figure correctly.

The whole precision thing is very new to me. I'm still examining the figures on the day of the event, I don't get practice (that is rapidly approaching "work" and I'm only doing this for the fun factor!)

Thanks for all your input folks,

-plm

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you're right about that! There aren't enough of us around anymore to complain about anyone, we only had three judges on the panels but at least it was better than single.

Nest time (if I remember!) I'll ask the "question" during the pilot's meeting, then listen to what comes back as a response.

I usually define the window by how far around the parameter I can fly (all the while flying inverted) before I start the figure. I figure if it's powered-up in that orientation, then I should be good to go. I'm looking for landmarks or clouds, some reference points to help position the figure correctly.

The whole precision thing is very new to me. I'm still examining the figures on the day of the event, I don't get practice (that is rapidly approaching "work" and I'm only doing this for the fun factor!)

Thanks for all your input folks,

-plm

I consider practicing precision on a REV fun. The REV is a precision machine. So acquiring precision skills on a REV is fun and the way to do it is by doing the compulsories. Why else would you learn to fly in a cirlcle backwards or really try to hold your spot in the sky during clockwork, or slide horizontal thru a lollipop. Hey the other stuff is fun but dead nuts on is fun too like in darts or horseshoes.

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I'm more about throwing the kite directly at a stroller, having the kids' parents scream bloody murder and then yank it out of the sky for a catch moments later. I crave that crowd interaction. Just like a predator, I separate the young or the weak from the herd and then attack 'em. Practicing figures is only about 2% as much fun as chasing the little tykes around in circles, at least in my case. We each have our favorite activities.

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I have had a problem with this. Wind window is defined by the kite and line pivoting around the pilot 180 to left and right and straight up and is a rectangle. Figures are defined by that. The pilot should be able to define the window before flying the figure and the better the figure is flown in that window the higher the score with the judges never looking at the pilot. This is much more important on dual line and figures like steps down. The other problem is the figure is defined in a planar format and flown on the perimeter of a quarter sphere.

It has bothered me that many judges have different views on this and no one seems ready to do the definitions.

Guess that goes with a small sport in a subsection that is unpopular.

John

Hi ,

As for the the Wind Window it's not as simple as that. For a start a Quad flys in reverse, only some fly as far backwards as they do forwards so what is you left & right edge - Forward or reverse ? It's not a rectangle, you mention pivot on the lines therefore its a continuous arch from far left ground level to far right ground level So almost a 1/4 sphere.. Within this wind window you fly an interpretation of a 2d figure in a 3D area. Your perspective will be different from each judges and the crowd (video camera) The judges score based on a rule book, precision is easy / Ballet is hard.

"flying doesn't make you a better Judge, but Judging makes you a better flyer"

Quote Simon.

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I'm more about throwing the kite directly at a stroller, having the kids' parents scream bloody murder and then yank it out of the sky for a catch moments later. I crave that crowd interaction. Just like a predator, I separate the young or the weak from the herd and then attack 'em. Practicing figures is only about 2% as much fun as chasing the little tykes around in circles, at least in my case. We each have our favorite activities.

BINGO>EXACTLY>DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Here's the point of contention...

The precision of a compulsory is determined by a stationary viewpoint (frame of reference).

In an ideal world, both pilot and judges are stationary (depth-wise)...

If the flier moves, say, 50 ft to the left halfway through a compulsory, then the center of the window changes and the judge's perspective is no longer accurate.

Same if either (not both) moves forward or back a lot, again, the frame of reference gets skewed.

I don't have an answer, although I'm familiar with the philosophy you described.

We gave up on competition a long time back even though team members were closely involved in the preparation of the Stack Constitution and Rule Book as I recall.

The static quarter hemisphere 'situation' is a completely unrealistic environment in practical terms except in extremely unusual circumstances and so provides a questionable backdrop for competitive deliberations... In My Humble Opinion, of course! <grins>

Felix

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