bartman Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I'm out in a 20-30 kph breeze or really gusty wind might be a better description as per the normal type of wind we get here when it does blow. I immediately want to use my mid-vent pro if I can as I just find it flies so much better than anything else I have. Well, it is doing really well, but the wind picks up more and I decided it is really not the best kite for the current conditions so I swap out a full vent off-the-shelf B series with race rods. I had 3 wrap in the mid vent. Well, the flying went from fairly smooth even with the gusts to choppy or bucking horse like with the full vent. I carried on for the better part of 2 hours with the full vent and found as the wind dropped a bit it wasn't quite a wild, but it had no where near the "crispness" of the mid vent and my 180 turns and tip turns were not as precise as they had been getting with the mid vent. Now, what is the cause here? Is it because my pro is just that much better or is it because I am just not as used to using the full vent anymore and don't know what I am doing? If it is a result of the superior pro version then my two observations there would be 1) WOW that I am really, REALLY starting to notice the differences a lot more between the pro and the regular B and 2) I think it is time to sell the regular B sails and upgrade myself to a pro set. If there are other factors I am not considering lay them on me! I really was surprised at the differences. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauranyyfan Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Hi Bart- How's everything? I'm just wondering if after the two hours of 20-30 mph winds that you just were tired and your muscles fatigued. That would definitely cause you to not be as sharp or "on your game". Once you have truly developed the skills for flying and the all of those small nuances, along with many hours under your belt, you will notice subtle differences in every kite you fly. To me, it just sounds like you are seeing and feeling a lot more about flying these babies!!! I could be wrong, but this is my gut feeling here. Keep doing what you're doing. as it sounds like you're doing quite well!!! Take care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott_of_melnsct Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 Race rods are not as stiff as 3 wraps. The added flex allowed for loading up of the center of the kite. In light wind that means sail pressure when you need it. In heavy it means power when you don't need it. in my opinion you should switch the two frames. Put the Race in the midvent so you can fly it in lower winds, and put the 3's in the full vent. Just my 2 cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AldenMiller Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I'm just going to go with you are crazy! -Alden Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imarche Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 The Midvent with Race or 3wrap is sweet in 20-30kph. If its 20-30mph, I would go with 4wraps in the full vent. Maybe even double up! Totally agree with Scott. The Racerods loads up more in higher winds. Switch to a stronger rod when the kite gets twitchy. That's what I'd do myself. Cheers Chua Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 ...but it had no where near the "crispness" of the mid vent and my 180 turns and tip turns were not as precise as they had been getting with the mid vent. The more vent you add to a kite, the less crisp it will feel since the venting slows everything down. But I find that venting makes 180 turns and tip turns easier and *more* precise (though slower). So, I'd have to go with yes, you are crazy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andelscott Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 My vented 'B' also takes the brunt of those stronger winds, so I've had to tighten the bottom end-cap bungees (on the vertical spars) a couple of times to keep the sail taut. If it balloons, the kite might wallow in turns. Might be worth a look if you've not checked them recently? [i'm prepared to be shot down in flames if I'm talking rot. It wouldn't be the first time... ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 How's everything? I'm just wondering if after the two hours of 20-30 mph winds that you just were tired and your muscles fatigued. That would definitely cause you to not be as sharp or "on your game". Once you have truly developed the skills for flying and the all of those small nuances, along with many hours under your belt, you will notice subtle differences in every kite you fly. To me, it just sounds like you are seeing and feeling a lot more about flying these babies!!! I'm good, how are you? I can't say fatigue this time. I switched out the mid for the full within the first 30 minutes and was having that bucking bronco for the next 90 minutes. After that the wind went down a bit and it was less chop and more smooth, but still not precise in the turns. Race rods are not as stiff as 3 wraps. The added flex allowed for loading up of the center of the kite. In light wind that means sail pressure when you need it. In heavy it means power when you don't need it. in my opinion you should switch the two frames. Put the Race in the midvent so you can fly it in lower winds, and put the 3's in the full vent. Just my 2 cents. I will make this change the next time out. I have used Race Rods in the full vent in the past without these kinds of issues, but do not recall how windy it was so can't say if I had the same issues. I do know this is not the first time my full vent has behaved badly in wind it was designed for. I'm just going to go with you are crazy! Sadly this is probably the easiest answer.... I didn't think the differences would be that drastic so thanks everyone for the ideas. It still got me thinking of a matching set of Pros though.... Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry w Posted October 12, 2010 Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I'm just going to go with you are crazy! -Alden i am with Alden ... heh heh :kid_devlish: :kid_devlish: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 12, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2010 I'm just going to go with you are crazy! -Alden So, I'd have to go with yes, you are crazy i am with Alden ... heh heh With friends like you guys.... Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauranyyfan Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Hi Bart- Things are good here. Since muscle fatigue wasn't a factor, yeah, I'd have to go with crazy, too!!!! OK, just joking. The midvent with the three wrap is a sweet choice when the winds are up some. It will get you through some of the gusts, too, until the wind is too much for that sail. Scott is definitely right. If the wind is up that much where you need the full vent, then use the four wrap (if you have it, or maybe even double up the LE). Otherwise, it's just loading up way too much and then becomes very twitchy. As the wind was subsiding, were you now a bit underpowered? Did you have enough drive at that point? For that ninety minutes of bucking, as you say, did you fly the entire time, straight through? Out of curiousity, did you let all of the break out when the wind was at it's peak? That helps some, too, especially when the wind is up and you're not sure if you should go to a heavier frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portlandflyer Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 CRAZY??!! NOT YOU!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 13, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Two things seem to be consistent. First, I am crazy and second, the frame was all wrong that day. I flew through most of that 90 minutes, but a friend stopped by so I took a break and talked with him. When I came back to it the wind had dropped quite a bit and the twitchy and wild bronco kite behaved much better. I still had issues with tightening up the turns, but not as much bucking driving forward. I still had lots of power at this point and didn't let up on the brakes at all. So, to answer that question, yes, the whole day I had maximum brake on. Now, since then I have had some underpower in forward flight because I have been experimenting with all that brake, but that is a different thread. For this example, lots of wind, lots of break, no drive issues other than the bucking. My next attempt in a wind storm I will ditch the race rods and put in the four wrap and see what happens. If it starts to buck again then there is more to the issue than just the rods and me being crazy! Bart Things are good here. Since muscle fatigue wasn't a factor, yeah, I'd have to go with crazy, too!!!! OK, just joking. The midvent with the three wrap is a sweet choice when the winds are up some. It will get you through some of the gusts, too, until the wind is too much for that sail. Scott is definitely right. If the wind is up that much where you need the full vent, then use the four wrap (if you have it, or maybe even double up the LE). Otherwise, it's just loading up way too much and then becomes very twitchy. As the wind was subsiding, were you now a bit underpowered? Did you have enough drive at that point? For that ninety minutes of bucking, as you say, did you fly the entire time, straight through? Out of curiousity, did you let all of the break out when the wind was at it's peak? That helps some, too, especially when the wind is up and you're not sure if you should go to a heavier frame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneReed Posted October 13, 2010 Report Share Posted October 13, 2010 Two things seem to be consistent. First, I am crazy and second, the frame was all wrong that day. I flew through most of that 90 minutes, but a friend stopped by so I took a break and talked with him. When I came back to it the wind had dropped quite a bit and the twitchy and wild bronco kite behaved much better. I still had issues with tightening up the turns, but not as much bucking driving forward. I still had lots of power at this point and didn't let up on the brakes at all. So, to answer that question, yes, the whole day I had maximum brake on. Now, since then I have had some underpower in forward flight because I have been experimenting with all that brake, but that is a different thread. For this example, lots of wind, lots of break, no drive issues other than the bucking. My next attempt in a wind storm I will ditch the race rods and put in the four wrap and see what happens. If it starts to buck again then there is more to the issue than just the rods and me being crazy! Bart Bart, I have had the experience of flying with race rods when the wind picked up. I was told that I didn't need to change rods because they are more resistant to breakage. I found the kite (I believe it was a fully vented B series) very twichy with a larger than normal curvature to the leading edge. Changing to a 3 wrap solved it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melnsct Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 It still got me thinking of a matching set of Pros though.... If you want new kites, you don't have to look for excuses!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 LOL, don't really need new ones, but it put a seed of an idea in my head for sure! Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portlandflyer Posted October 14, 2010 Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 Bart : Are you at max adjustment on both your top and bottom leaders?? If so, try carrying a couple of the original factory pigtails in your pocket!! They can be used as extenders in a pinch to make your top lines longer, and maybe cure that bucking bronco feeling!!! They come in handy, once in a while!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2010 (edited) I have a made up set of leaders for the top which will allow about 10 inches out. I can get a difference of 8-8.5 inches between top and bottom. That is eyeballing it. I haven't actually taken the 10 seconds to do a real measurement. I have been flying with all of the brake or as much as I can and still move forward as part of my grand experiment in control. Bart Edited October 14, 2010 by bartman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 I had a chance to put the race rods in the mid on a day when a std or mid would be an acceptable kite choice and discovered that the twith has now moved to the mid although not as pronounced as it was in the full vent. So clearly the type of rods are making the difference. I'm not sure why I am having troubles with using the RRs though and how to eliminate this twitchy business. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Posted October 24, 2010 Report Share Posted October 24, 2010 I find I like the "spring" of the Race rods, however still enjoy flying other set ups. Are you agressive with your control or fairly laid back, I have given my set up to others who are quite agressive with thier movements and they have said they dont like the way I have my handles set up. Might be to do with this BM ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartman Posted October 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2010 That's an interesting question. I'm not really sure and I have never really compared when others are with me. I would say more non-aggressive. When I would notice the twitchy most would be just flying a straight line left or right. So giving it some thumbs back travelling not very fast and really nothing for gusts. Bart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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