bazzeb Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I think that this would be a 'possibility' but 'space' would be an issue. Felix EDIT I have sent a message to the organisers of the event Thankyou for the update Felix Daz I think that would be a better idea AND people from all over the world would be able to book accomodation in portsmouth NOW if they wanted to if there was a serious 100 mega fly attempt OR a world record to be had (ie more than the WSIKF) then surely as an organiser they could arrange for kites to be cleared as appropriate to accomodate for a short time then it would be CHALK ONE UP FOR THE UK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thankyou for the update Felix Daz I think that would be a better idea AND people from all over the world would be able to book accomodation in portsmouth NOW if they wanted to if there was a serious 100 mega fly attempt OR a world record to be had (ie more than the WSIKF) then surely as an organiser they could arrange for kites to be cleared as appropriate to accomodate for a short time then it would be CHALK ONE UP FOR THE UK I really do not want to 'pour cold water' on your enthusiasm but 100 grid is not trivial and it really is not just a case of just taking over the flying area of the SLKs for a short time as that field is dominated by physical anchor points etc. We would need the absolute backing of the organisers and a very clear plan for preparation and delivery of an attempt at 100 kites. Some lessons were learned at Long Beach, not least regarding the launch and landing sequences within a defined area. Those of us who took part in the Long Beach event are probably less interested in an incremental record and I expect would only be really enthusiastic about going for the 100. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 From recent experience accommodation IN Portsmouth is not that easy to come by either for those wishing to attend the festival as Daz will testify, probably because it is a bank holiday weekend, plus Portsmouth is very dependant on wind direction, if anyone is looking for a large open space to try and get a lot of kites in the air in the Uk I will throw Rougham Airfield's name into the ring, the local flying site of the Suffolk Kite Flyers, as people are probably aware the festival is not going ahead this year but from reading their forum they are looking to be back in 2012 " bigger and better" and are looking for idea's for something different to freshen thing's up, just a suggestion I have no connection to either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 From recent experience accommodation IN Portsmouth is not that easy to come by either for those wishing to attend the festival as Daz will testify, probably because it is a bank holiday weekend, plus Portsmouth is very dependant on wind direction, if anyone is looking for a large open space to try and get a lot of kites in the air in the Uk I will throw Rougham Airfield's name into the ring, the local flying site of the Suffolk Kite Flyers, as people are probably aware the festival is not going ahead this year but from reading their forum they are looking to be back in 2012 " bigger and better" and are looking for idea's for something different to freshen thing's up, just a suggestion I have no connection to either. Thanks for the suggestion but 'inland' even as close to the sea as the Bristol site is will never be as viable as a shore based site. Long Beach is brilliant, Berck is likely to be a bit brutal, the Mediterranean sites are great after 11am but beach space may be limited. Portsmouth is OK but a bit tricky when the tide is down and especially when the ships go past. Accommodation in Portsmouth, as in Berck, is finite! <grins> I am not familiar with accommodation possibilities in the Rougham area... Bury St. Edmunds I guess! Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Thanks for the suggestion but 'inland' even as close to the sea as the Bristol site is will never be as viable as a shore based site. Long Beach is brilliant, Berck is likely to be a bit brutal, the Mediterranean sites are great after 11am but beach space may be limited. Portsmouth is OK but a bit tricky when the tide is down and especially when the ships go past. Accommodation in Portsmouth, as in Berck, is finite! <grins> I am not familiar with accommodation possibilities in the Rougham area... Bury St. Edmunds I guess! Felix My guess would be leave it for this year. I don't believe we could get 100 @ Rougham Portsmouth even Berck would be hard. A BIG event in USA in 2012 or in UK 2012, if we could get something to tie in with that other event in the UK in 2012. We could get UK flyers offering space to those that want to visit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 My guess would be leave it for this year. I don't believe we could get 100 @ Rougham Portsmouth even Berck would be hard. A BIG event in USA in 2012 or in UK 2012, if we could get something to tie in with that other event in the UK in 2012. We could get UK flyers offering space to those that want to visit Thanks for your comments Simon. I think that the 100 project will be realised eventually! I do not think that it will happen in the USA after the initial attempt at Long Beach last summer. The site and preparations were superb. The fliers were not ultimately available despite the USA being, marginally, the biggest market for the kites. We have not been able to involve the Japanese teams so far except at Uchinada. If we could combine them and the Europeans it would be easy to make 100. How to do it? Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andelscott Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think that the 100 project will be realised eventually! Quite possibly. However, can we rewind a little? I've one ever so slightly heretical question: What's so special about the number 100? Yes, it's a lot of kites, but what patterns, moves, transitions would it specifically open up? Given practical constraints for the column height of 6-8, surely this would promote a multiple of the height as the target number? Then, looking at the "building blocks" for stock moves (modelled on the Super Sixteen principles), replicating them in the horizontal plane suggests that 64 is a good number (8 x 8 might push the limits in lighter winds and mixed abilities) or 72 (6 x 6 + 6 x 6) followed by 108 (add another 6 x 6 block to the side) and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Quite possibly. However, can we rewind a little? I've one ever so slightly heretical question: <snip> The original idea for grid flying going back to 1993 envisaged 100 kites. I would like to see it done <grins> Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwmeek Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Frankly, just getting a 10 x 10 grid into the air and stable would be a sight to see, and something to remember being part of. Flying formations or figures might be gilding the lily. If you just had to, I suspect you would have to devise a few one-off figures and plan each person's part in advance. If you want simply a big grid, Andy's 64 suggestion would lend itself to elaborations of the 16-grid figures. The even powers of 2 (1, 4, 16, 64, 256, etc.) are the most versatile. They can be subdivided in many ways. With a 10 x 10 grid, you have divide by 2 and divide by 5, but nothing else unless you separate into uneven groups. A 6 x 6 or a 12 x 12 might be interesting as you get the triple divides as well as the twos. (9 x 9 only has threes -- no splits by two.) (These notions all assume square grids.) I just had an idea for slightly increasing the vertical window: find a high pier or catwalk with the wind crossways to it. Then part of the grid could be below the fliers, making more vertical space available. It might introduce a bit of turbulence, but, after all, nothing comes for free in this life. Edited January 19, 2011 by --Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Frankly, just getting a 10 x 10 grid into the air and stable would be a sight to see, and something to remember being part of. Flying formations or figures might be gilding the lily. If you just had to, I suspect you would have to devise a few one-off figures and plan each person's part in advance. If you want simply a big grid, Andy's 64 suggestion would lend itself to elaborations of the 16-grid figures. The even powers of 2 (1, 4, 16, 64, 256, etc.) are the most versatile. They can be subdivided in many ways. With a 10 x 10 grid, you have divide by 2 and divide by 5, but nothing else unless you separate into uneven groups. A 6 x 6 or a 12 x 12 might be interesting as you get the triple divides as well as the twos. (9 x 9 only has threes -- no splits by two.) (These notions all assume square grids.) I just had an idea for slightly increasing the vertical window: find a high pier or catwalk with the wind crossways to it. Then part of the grid could be below the fliers, making more vertical space available. It might introduce a bit of turbulence, but, after all, nothing comes for free in this life. I am very much aware that the basic 16 grid potentially 'multiplies' to 64... 36 is another good starting point. 12 x 12 I think is probably not practical. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkey Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I'd agree with Felix, 12x12 would be unmanageable, the flyers at the top would have no air and the ones at the bottom would be hugging the ground pretty tightly. Still hoping to make it to Berck this year regardless of whether a 100 rev fly can be pulled off, it's an excellent chance for an iQuad 5 year birthday party on the exact beach John and I (some would say foolishly!) figured maybe we could put together a quad team in the Northwest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazzer Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think people are getting stuck on the maths here of size of grid. That isn't the problem of going over 9 high on a grid. 120ft and the width of the kite in a vertical hover is the problem. In a perfect location all kites could hover horizontally to fit but it would limit what you can do. The wind will dropout on you. At that point all kites must be vertical to stay in the air. The only way of making a 12 x12 work, 11x 11 or to be truthful a 10x10 cleanly is to have longer line lengths after the 8th row. Even with clean winds the top kites end up at a high angle of attack. By extending the 8th/9th row line lengths the top kites would be at a natural 3/4 window instead of over head. Also each maneuver gradually creeps the whole pack up. Especially if making up turns. So the number isn't the problem. The line length and keeping a cap on the upward creep is your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madquad Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Still hoping to make it to Berck this year Hope to meet you all at the 25th anniversary of the Berck Kite Festival.....would be great to fly together again ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I'd agree with Felix, 12x12 would be unmanageable, the flyers at the top would have no air and the ones at the bottom would be hugging the ground pretty tightly. <snip <snip> Also each maneuver gradually creeps the whole pack up. Especially if making up turns. So the number isn't the problem. The line length and keeping a cap on the upward creep is your problem. When The Decs started flying eight we went to 125ft line sets. That felt 'about right'. It might be 'interesting' to try ten fliers on, say, 140ft lines to see how much space that opened up. I would be reluctant to try and use different line lengths within the grid. The altitude creep is definitely the issue to be tackled on the field. Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madquad Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Bring a bag full of linesets Felix !!!!... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Bring a bag full of linesets Felix !!!!... Sorry, but I do not have the resources... We may have to refer to our sponsors! Anyone? Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 When The Decs started flying eight we went to 125ft line sets. That felt 'about right'. It might be 'interesting' to try ten fliers on, say, 140ft lines to see how much space that opened up. I would be reluctant to try and use different line lengths within the grid. The altitude creep is definitely the issue to be tackled on the field. Felix Keith & I were at the front side by side in a grid, we got very good at keeping down. Just need the ones above to realise and stay low. Put me and Keith at the front of a grid and you have a start ! Me & Keith bigged UP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Keith & I were at the front side by side in a grid, we got very good at keeping down. Just need the ones above to realise and stay low. Put me and Keith at the front of a grid and you have a start ! <snip> The more aware the fliers are of the situation, the better. Experience helps, to say the least. We'll avoid the 'practice' word. "Mega Team fliers just do it". Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baloo Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I have no experience of team, and have only watched grids. It seems a problem is having wind for the top fliers, while letting the bottom fliers get off the ground. My question would be, does the grid HAVE to be square? I know there are space constraints, and having the grid spread will stop some patterns being flown. However could it not be for instance, 5 deep by 10 long? This would allow the normal vertical and horizontal in line type formations. You could also split the main group up into 5 groups of 20 for some more intricate formations. (By split up I dont actually mean walk away from each other) Sorry if this is a stupid unworkable suggestion, however the folks closest to a problem often miss seeing things. Like the little Girl watching a truck getting rescued from under a bridge, asking why dont the let the tyres down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 <snip> My question would be, does the grid HAVE to be square? <snip> The initial advantage of a square is that 'concentric' circles are very easy to form... Once fliers 'get the grid' rectangles are fine, but having said that one of the first grids at Portsmouth in 2008 worked perfectly well at 6 x 8 (missing one flier so 47 <grins>). Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) <snip> Still hoping to make it to Berck this year regardless of whether a 100 rev fly can be pulled off, it's an excellent chance for an iQuad 5 year birthday party on the exact beach John and I (some would say foolishly!) figured maybe we could put together a quad team in the Northwest The last couple of years Berck has been a 'Revolution Festival' in practice given the number of teams/fliers in attendance. Even if the 100 rev fly does not happen, as looks likely, it would be good if provision could be made for teams who have not attended previously. I will certainly be prepared to ask Gérard to make facilities available if at all possible. 'Foolishly'? Exactly how many years procrastination was that? <grins> Felix EDIT Font sizes! Edited January 23, 2011 by Felix Mottram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Gérard has sent me a 'reminder' that the deadline for his Project 100 is the end of the month. He also asked for the size of field that would be needed. Can someone tell me what size the Long Beach field was? (Not that I think that it will actually happen at Berck now, of course) Thanks Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 lamaisonducerf-volant wrote: <snip> For the project 100 give me the minimum dimensions for the field ( in meters please ) Thank you Gérard Dear Gérard, I am working on the logistics for the team and will get back to you as soon as is possible. In respect of Project 100 the field in Long Beach where we had 64 fliers was about 142m Square. I think that for 100 fliers 189m square would work but I have to say that it does not look like there is any possibility of 100 fliers committing to the Berck event in April 2011. Maybe we could set about planning an event for 2012? Best wishes Felix -- Felix Mottram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madquad Posted January 26, 2011 Report Share Posted January 26, 2011 Lets go for the 64+ !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Posted January 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2011 Lets go for the 64+ !!!! The thing is that Gérard had said that he could not proceed unless 100 fliers were available. At this stage that is the case, we do not have 100 fliers. However Gérard has asked for the size of the field! We may need to be prepared to demonstrate how we could occupy the field in an organised event in 2012... Felix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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