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going lighter


kimbo
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Since all the buzz over the Zen, what are some other ways to get lighter for low wind conditions?

I am new and was thinking about using the indoor rev with the light fabric and fly it on stronger rods for outdoors, maybe race rods???

Ideas???

Kimbo

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I am not sure the race rods would work. (I think they are too short- I could & probably be wrong- I never measured them)

lighter lines make a huge difference. 50lb vs 90lb

practice

longer handles

practice

practice

lighter bridal

practice

I am sure more will chime in.

Edited by RAWVEEDA
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I am not sure the race rods would work. (I think they are too short- I could & probably be wrong- I never measured them)

lighter lines make a huge difference. 50lb vs 90lb

practice

longer handles

practice

practice

lighter bridal

practice

I am sure more will chime in.

Don't forget the helium filled rods.

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Gimme a P

Gimme an R

gimme an A

gimme a C

gimme a T

etc, etc, etc.

You get the idea.

All to often, people blame a lack of wind for their inability to fly in that condition. Rather than complain that the kite won't fly or there isn't enough wind, get out there and practice, practice. practice! Sure it takes a bit more effort and isn't as fun as hanging around in a 7 mph breeze laughing and doing fun stuff but it sure does pay off when you're flying in 3 and under while listening to others moan about the poor (sic) conditions!!!!

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The rev indoor is not ideal for outdoors. There is about a 1-2 inch difference between rev Indoor rods and the 1.5 race rods. It is possible to swap the verticals, but not the leading edge (the difference in length adds up). I think a full sail B-Series with race rods can do just about anything. I even pulled one out for a bit at Camas Indoor, completely stock material and bridal. Some lighter lines may help a little bit, but I don't find it to be significant enough to bother. One thing that definitely helps in lighter wind, are short lines! When the wind is light and everyone using 120' lines is on the ground, I will be up and going with a 30' line set. I also believe that the short lines really spike up the learning curve too (less space so more hovering and speed control). ;)

Edited by Watty
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I feel this conversation heading towards ultra light is king.

Ok I'm going to tell you something you are not going to believe or want to hear.

With a rev there is a a point where to light is no good.

Its sounds a strange statement but let me explain.

Consider throwing two balls. One is a tennis ball the other is a table tennis ball. ....which goes further?

The tennis ball goes further due to the mass. Air resistance "friction" stops the lighter object traveling as far as the heavier object.

Now consider a balsa wood glider or a larger radio controlled airplane.

take all of the weight out of the nose and throw the plane. It stall and falls out of the sky.

Now put the weight back in and you achieve glide angle.

Spar weight in different areas of the sail also make a huge difference in the handling characteristics.

Flying in low winds is all about getting the correct amount of mass and more importantly .

The correct positioning of that mass on the wing surface.

To achieve this also you must have the skills to put the kite into that correct flying plane.

On a two line kite the angle of attack of the wing is always (on an ultra light) in a nose forward drive position.

On a rev we have control over very surface and in such, no set wing attitude set by the kite.

If you do not have the skills to set that angle of attack the kite will not do it for you.

However with the set up we have on the Zen the weight distribution and the increase of sail area , in the right places will make it easier.

So here is the Zen low down.

It is not what many would consider to be an ultra light kite.

It will fly in some very light wind speeds. Depending still on your skill level.

However it will be a lot easier than what you have experienced before.

The spar arrangement and bridle have been worked out as to give us the very best combination of weight and mass to make lower wind flying more enjoyable.

There is more sail area which gives a firm response/feel in our hands.

We have tried the kite with an ultra light leading edge and here is what we found. The kite was lighter ...by a fraction. However it had no weight in the leading edge anymore to make very low wind turns. No mass to throw around . Just like throwing the tennis ball and the table tennis ball. It was very unsatisfactory.

Ok so there is the basic premise behind Zen and also why it has taken so long.

The kite gives us a better feel in the lower winds. It pulls solidly.

You can fly as you fly in 7mph with a 1.5 in 3 mph with a Zen.

I think I have said enough and would like to open it up to the opinions of my Team Mates and I have to say.

Some of the finest, no and low wind, fliers in the world.

Bazzer

Edited by Bazzer
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Watty has the right idea.... The indoor rev is fun to fly out side... but with no wind what so ever, and on short lines. iQuad I remember we gave the indoors a try a while ago.. I think we had them on 120 foot.... even the slightest little gust makes the indoor bend and turns the kite very twitchy.... and yes the rods in the indoor are longer...

I must say light wind flying is one of my favorite times to fly... Its the full concentration needed to keep the sail full and really being one with nature... feeling every bump every switch in direction...

And now on the the subject of making things lighter in low wind... Is this always the case??? Just something to think about .... paper air planes why do they put more weight in them.. Eg. a paper clip on the nose?? Well we thought about this ... tried it out.. with some leading edge weight eg... using 3 wrap 2 wrap combo... 3 wrap inside (the Weight) and the two wraps give the nice bend we want... and again the right weight.. on now .. a bigger sail then the 1.5 ... The 1 in theory it shouldn't be lighter at all.. With a bigger Engine (The Sail) we can carry the right rods in the right place to have the best results in light wind flying.. technique is a huge thing... you must practice to fly in light winds... does not matter what kind of kite you are flying how light or not... still need practice and time to learn to keep the sail full ....

Keep springs on your shoes and the wing in motion...

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I feel this conversation heading towards ultra light is king.

<snip>

Momentum helps a lot of the time. I think that you are completely correct to address this issue. The flier also has to 'learn' the feedback, both visual and down the lines in order 'feel' the kite and react accordingly.

I handed a vented 1.5 to a power kiter yesterday on Blackheath. He could not 'feel' anything and was not able to control the kite.

Felix

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you can also do what i did .. i had a spare indoor frame .. the old advantage1.5 and cut it down to a 1.5 size.. i use this on my SUL and with 50 foot lines i can fly it anywhere.. i have said this before that rev needs to bring this rodset back .. i hope thay se this and know that i love it the best for inland flying.. this rod set and a spectra bridle and i have had no complaints so far..

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you can also do what i did .. i had a spare indoor frame .. the old advantage1.5 and cut it down to a 1.5 size.. i use this on my SUL and with 50 foot lines i can fly it anywhere.. i have said this before that rev needs to bring this rodset back .. i hope thay se this and know that i love it the best for inland flying.. this rod set and a spectra bridle and i have had no complaints so far..

Thanks for all the input. Learning all the time.

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Not sure what I can add to the sentiments of brothers Steve and Baz, except that for light wind, once you're on a full sail, it's 5% weight, 25% tuning and 70% technique. ;)

John

What tuning do you do for light wind. It seems like a lot of people remove the braking but my impression is that you leave the braking in. My impression (especially for solo flying where you can move a lot) is that it is best to leave it balanced between forward and braking. Team which is almost all forward flying you might want to cheat toward a forward balance.

What say you Master

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Not sure what I can add to the sentiments of brothers Steve and Baz, except that for light wind, once you're on a full sail, it's 5% weight, 25% tuning and 70% technique. ;)

From someone who dreaded any "extreme" wind I can say that JB is right on with the 70% technique. I'd also include the practice in there too. While I'm still lost when the wind gets too low I am able now to fly in a breeze that I wouldn't even have bothered going outside for a year ago. You only get there by suffering through the learning curve during the low winds and discovering how your kite will perform and what you need to do to keep it performing.

Bart

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We leave the brake in, flying nearly identical settings in everything 0-18mph, and one more knot of brake in anything over 18-20mph.

Seconded!

We need to learn how to move quickly on the ground in low wind in team* as well...

*I am particularly interested in this concept for the Mega Team.

Felix

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