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Are you willing or able to put in 10,000 hours flying time??


Martyjuggles

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.. . . or to break it down roughly three hours a day, or 20 hours a week, of practice over 10 years, to truly be an 'expert'. . .

The article below is on a subject that fascinates me, the question "Is there such a thing as natural ability or is it down to the drive to practice hard and the circumstances which allow you to do so.??" As someone who was often accused of being talented in music as a kid and in later life with juggling it's always annoyed me slightly that people use 'natural talent' as as the main reason why people are good or very good at something - it belies the :censored: hard work that people apply to excellence in their chosen field.

Now, i wouldn't say i'm an expert musician or juggler for that matter but i AM pretty good - i obviously didn't have the single mindedness to focus on just ONE thing for the required amount of time. The article compares the Beatles with experts in the field of computers such as Bill Gates and again and again the magical 10 years/ 10,000 hours crops up as of key significance.

So to the question for the forum - is this true of flying kites?? What sort of practice hours have the experts in kite flying put in and over what sort of time period??

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/nov/1...utliers-extract

It's an interesting read,

Marty

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I've always felt it's a combination of the two things. Each person has a certain degree (some more, some less) of innate talent. The degree to which they have to work and practice to advance their skills is relative to the amount of innate talent they already possess. Regardless, I just tell everybody "practice, practice, practice."

For me, this most often comes up when someone has been watching me or our gang flying and is compelled to come over and ask, "Is that hard to learn?" I always struggle with my reply because some people can indeed pick up a Rev and fly it immediately, whereas others have great difficulty. It's easy for some, not easy for others.

IMHO...

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I feel like there is some natural ability. I also believe practice is paramount to success. However, without some good instruction, all is wasted. I flew for almost 5 years and never got any better than the first few weeks at flying my Revs. I was happy and wasn't even aware that wasn't all that there was. Then I got hold of this forum. I saw lots of things I never even thought of and folks were sharing how-to's. My interest skyrocketed. Then I got to fly with some folks that knew more than I did. Then team flying and formations, finding the need to have the kite in a particular place at a particular time and hold it there. Changing the speed of the kite and keeping it constant.

I have learned so much more the last few years and become aware of how much more I can learn.

I enjoy flying my Revs even more the more I learn and for me B) the fun and enjoyment :P is what it's all about.

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It's just not black & white.

I've always felt it's a combination of the two things. Each person has a certain degree (some more, some less) of innate talent. The degree to which they have to work and practice to advance their skills is relative to the amount of innate talent they already possess. Regardless, I just tell everybody "practice, practice, practice."

For me, this most often comes up when someone has been watching me or our gang flying and is compelled to come over and ask, "Is that hard to learn?" I always struggle with my reply because some people can indeed pick up a Rev and fly it immediately, whereas others have great difficulty. It's easy for some, not easy for others.

IMHO...

hmm - but is 'innate talent' just the ability to be interested enough in something to put in the time?? OR are people better at particular skill sets ie art, sciences, fine motor skills, gross motor skills and then have potential to succeed in any number of activities that have those skills sets. For example because i'm a good juggler, and can unicycle, stiltwalk and slack line does mean the part of my brain that deals with co-ordination has been well practised and therefore i will pick up other co-ordination based skills quicker??

When i learnt music as a kid i had two older brothers - neither of whom ever went on to get into music, but who were playing the recorder from an early age so it was there as an influence, from as young as 3 ALL i wanted to do was play the guitar - by the time i started having lessons at 8 i was a sponge for it and couldn't practice enough and became a very good guitarist by the time i was 18 but haven't improved much since. I got good because i was itching to learn and practiced hard not because i was especially talented.

When i was learning to juggle 2 of my friends and I were in a friendly competition to see who could learn 5 balls - up until that point we'd been learning at different rates and it's probably fare to say i was picking things up the fastest - HOWEVER, in the act of getting 5 balls solid there is no shortcut to hours and hours of practise, in the end it was pretty much a draw between us as my initial fast learning rate slowed down as we went to on tackle increasingly technical juggling. A so called 'talented' individual MAY pick up certain things fast initially but i'm convinced in the quest for excellence that the learning curve slows and then is no substitute for hard graft.

I find it hard to believe that there is such a thing as a naturally talented kiter - since what would happen to those poor unfortunates who are natually talented kiters but never get to pick one up?

It's all questions i'm just fascinated with this line of reasoning

:kid_smartass:

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I think anyone that really pushes can learn something to a point. There is a plateau that not everyone can attain. I believe it's an absolute fact that people are born with certain abilities. Some people are coordinated to use their hands, some their voices, etc.

With Revs, I think there's a certain amount of eye-hand cooridination that we genereally don't think about. Yes, there's tons of muscle memory from repeated movements, but ultimately, if the average person practices day after day, they can't attain the skills of a JB or Steve de Rooy. These guys have been doing this since they're very young, so they've far surpassed what an adult can learn in the same time frame. Our brains, as adults, are already "hard wired" where as kids, the foundation is just being built.

On a basic level, you have a guy that's been playing football (American) since childhood, his dream is to play in the Pros. He plays through his college years, but never even gets drafted to the Pros. Why? He's reached the top of his ability at the college level and the Pros are another level above that. I think the same can be said for any sport or anything. There are some that can be really good, but never great!

I'll be happy just being halfway good; as long as I'm flying that's all that matters! Of course, learning new things is icing on the cake; just as Mr. Denny has stated. We can all learn certain skills, but maybe not as well as some.

... just my thoughts on the subject.

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Guest QuadQrazy

Dodd Gross started out as a drummer, but was able to take his talent, and become a Master Instructor in DLK flying, and has made his own videos.

I think if you have the basic skills, good hand-eye reflexes, and others to show you the more advanced moves you can be a pro flyer.

The student can surpass the teacher "you have learned well grasshopper", and can become a pro in the field.

I once heard "practice does not make perfect ...... perfect practice makes it perfect"

I'm no pro flyer by any meens, but I have flown for over then years, but thats seasonal, and I still enjoy flying, and

even a "old dog can learn new tricks".

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I think anyone that really pushes can learn something to a point. There is a plateau that not everyone can attain. I believe it's an absolute fact that people are born with certain abilities. Some people are coordinated to use their hands, some their voices, etc.

With Revs, I think there's a certain amount of eye-hand cooridination that we genereally don't think about. Yes, there's tons of muscle memory from repeated movements, but ultimately, if the average person practices day after day, they can't attain the skills of a JB or Steve de Rooy. These guys have been doing this since they're very young, so they've far surpassed what an adult can learn in the same time frame. Our brains, as adults, are already "hard wired" where as kids, the foundation is just being built.

On a basic level, you have a guy that's been playing football (American) since childhood, his dream is to play in the Pros. He plays through his college years, but never even gets drafted to the Pros. Why? He's reached the top of his ability at the college level and the Pros are another level above that. I think the same can be said for any sport or anything. There are some that can be really good, but never great!

I'll be happy just being halfway good; as long as I'm flying that's all that matters! Of course, learning new things is icing on the cake; just as Mr. Denny has stated. We can all learn certain skills, but maybe not as well as some.

... just my thoughts on the subject.

I agree. Young people are better able to learn anything that requires hand/eye coordination. For the same reason people who fence very well are those that started at a very young age. Put a younger fencer up against an older fencer when they are both still learning and most times the younger of the two will win the bout. Been there, done that as they say.

Bart

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To put this is perspective, a person working 40 hours a week 52 weeks a year works 2080 hours.

So we're looking at 4.8 years of full time work.

So my answer is no, not willing to quit work to be a FTE of a kite flyer.

Guess I will just be a rec flyer and hopefully be able to add my name to the iQuad honor roll one of these days.

Yes I Can! :kid_brooding:

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<snip>

I once heard "practice does not make perfect ...... perfect practice makes it perfect"

<snip>

My personal take on this is that there comes a point when it is not practice and the repeated moves are done for the sheer aesthetic enjoyment.

I remember piano scales but never reached that moment of understanding.

I will happily repeat rev moves, as it were, all day long.... all the better if it is a team thing!

Felix

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Just to continue in my defense of this theory, the argument that young people learn faster, is possibly true but may also be for a number of reasons OTHER than simply that young people learn faster.

First off, young people are adept at learning as that is what they spend the majority of their time doing in school, this may not necessarily be because they are young, rather that they are well practised at it.

Second, young people, may have more spare time in which to pursue their chosen pastimes.

Thirdly, most young people do not have the psychological pressure of having to worry about earning an income, supporting a family or running a home and therefore may be able to pursue there pastime with less external pressure away from their pastime of choice.

Finally, if you look at those people who excelled in there chosen field from an early age it is as much about personal circumstance than it is 'natural talent.' Malcom Gladwell's article makes reference to several examples which include the success of the Beatles, Mozart and Athletes. In terms of juggling Anthony Gatto, who is arguably the world's greatest juggler, began juggling at 5 and by 13 had a number of world records and has continued to push the boundaries in his adult life. Naturally talented???? Well his father was a juggler, who also trained as a boxing and acrobatics coach and carefully nurtured Anthony's interest in juggling through a training regimen that included daily juggling practice and physical conditiioning. Now he is clearly the best and has been since a young age but is that more personal circumstance or natural ability???

Quad Crazy mentioned Dodd Gross who is clearly an expert in the field of kite flying - he started flying in 1986 and by 1994 retired from competition as AKM Masters Ballet/Precision Champion but during that time he'd been completely committed to kite flying, as an entrepreneur his business centred around kites and therefore he spent the majority of his time thinking about or flying kites - perhaps cirrcumstances MORE than natural talent??

I am purposefully trying to make a distinction between a natural interest and a natural talent here. . . . .

Marty :kid_smartass:

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I'd have to say I have 10,000 hours on a REV 1point5 already. That doesn't make me an expert, but I do fly against them in competitions occasionally. I don't win, but I certainly have a great time and each comp teaches me a little bit more. Heck, eventually I might even look 1/2way decent!

I have never practiced anything, just been out there enjoying myself. While I admire folks who religiously diagram a routine and then practice it for many hours, I will NOT walk down that path. You're making my fun activity into "w-o-r-k" and I already have a good job!

Just guessing, but are there more soul fliers in quad than any other category?

The quads naturally draw-out the funster fliers, so that carefully correographed routine is pretty easy to spot when stacked against the others. I only do well in tough conditions, when nothing the planners have worked out could possibly be used that day!

I tell folks I can fly in any conditions, indoors or out, regardless of the restrictions imposed upon me. I have lots of different kites, handles, line-sets and enough experience to decide when to use 'em all. I have clothes that allow me to sleep in a snowdrift (I haTe being cold or wet!) Our local club flies even if the event is cancelled due to bad weather. Bad weather is really only a reason to buy new, better outdoor wear anyway.

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Marty thanks for posting that article. Really enjoyed reading it. Wish I had read it 55 years ago.

There is no doubt that practice works. There is no doubt that circumstances help. There is no doubt that inate ability works. There is no doubt that with given circumstances and given inate ability practice works and improves your skills. So the article focused on the few who achieved super skill and results, it still applies to everyone and it is what separates winners from losers in any field.

That article would be good reading for any young person.

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